Synthetic Oil for the Cage?

[screwtop]

Folks,

Sorry to talk about the cage, but I have an 05 Honda Pilot and we're really racking up the mileage on it. I want to go synthetic to reduce the frequency of my oil changes, perhaps 6.5 to 7K between changes. Any thoughts on a good brand (castrol syntec?) and success with such a plan in general?

Thanks,

ST

[nhlkats]

==> what mileage is it at?

==> 7K b/w changes seems too infrequent. Ive only gone at max 5K b/w changes. But then again, it doesnt sound like youre using this pilot for "enthusiastic driving", so that is something to bear in mind.

[rinty]

What's the length of your typical daily driving cycle?

Rinty

[screwtop]

What's the length of your typical daily driving cycle?

Rinty

About 84 miles per day.

[basketcase]

I've run synthetics in all my vehicles for years.

Presently I am running the Vavoline Gold (10-30W) synthetic in my Ranger truck, wife's Explorer, and kid's Taurus. Changes are done every 5K miles -- as much as anything, because we end up doing about 3 changes per year on mine and my wife's, and 2 oil changes per year on the kid's car. The 5k interval is simple to remember and record, and errs on the side of caution. The main reason that brand of oil is used is because it is the synthetic they stock at the quick change place near my home.

When I drove for H.O. Wolding the trucks were run on Mobil Delvac extended range synthetic, and we were scheduled into the Amherst shop around every 10k miles for a full service -- which included an oil change. The truck I was assigned never used oil, and it had just under a half million miles on it when I took the keys the day I finished orientation.

I run Shell Rotella T Synthetic in my Gold Wing (yes, in terms of bike choice I'm a misfit in the BMW crowd) and do the oil changes there on the 5K schedule. But, a lot of the Gold Wingers I know do theirs at 8,000 miles running the Rotella oil.

More later maybe via edit ... lunch calls! :eat

Via edit: The several Wingers I am thinking about are scientific and obsessive compulsive about oil changes, and would change it more frequently if they thought the engine required it. (In fact, one of them spends a lot of time on the bobistheoilguy forum. The same guy is also into distance riding and did the Iron Butt coast to coast ride earlier this year.) All of them ride bikes that are trouble free and do not use oil.

About 10 years ago I lived in Mississippi, and there as a quick change place on the highway in Petal. It was on my commuter route, so I was there having my (pickup) truck oil changed one day and got into an aside conversation with the owner. He was in his late 60's at the time and about to retire, and we meandered into a discussion of his work and how he got into the oil change business.

He had come up through mechanicking the old school way, and spent some time as the service manager of a big three auto dealership before going out on his own. His take on oils was that given the improvements in oil quality since he started wrenching (which would have been around 1955) that an owner could easily go 5K between changes, and could change oil brands at every change and not significantly impact the serviceable life of the car. And that was with reference to dino oils.

Changing the oil filter at every oil change was a given in the discussion, but he also commented on the matter of the air filter. He recommended keeping an eye on it and changing it once a year at a minimum. Later on I got into the same discussion with a friend who was/is a tech at the GP mill in New Augusta. He ran Mobil 1 in his Chevy truck and changed it once a year -- which was about every 15k miles. His commuted around 50 miles round trip each day, and his truck was not consuming oil.

Several have already touched on the scientific side of the matter and I’ll not reiterate it. I do think that if you want to really be sure about the oil’s life that having it tested will give you a baseline.

None of our personal vehicles consume oil between changes. Interestingly, as I’ve thought about this post I realize that each of the three vehicles is showing around 85K on the odometers at this particular time. I’ve not had the oil tested for any of them, but nether am I trying to go the max distance between changes.

Anyway, my read on the question is to put synthetics in your Pilot and don’t check up…

[GregFeeler]

Folks,

Sorry to talk about the cage, but I have an 05 Honda Pilot and we're really racking up the mileage on it. I want to go synthetic to reduce the frequency of my oil changes, perhaps 6.5 to 7K between changes. Any thoughts on a good brand (castrol syntec?) and success with such a plan in general?

Thanks,

ST

There is so much urban myth about oils that I decided to apply some science instead. First, I pay close attention to the recommendations about oil type/viscosity and change frequency specified by the vehicle manufacture. Secondly, I've been sending in samples of my car and bike oils to Blackstone Labs for analysis (www.blackstone-labs.com). Oil testing is how the big rig operators optimize oil changes on engines that need to last well into 6 figure mileages. So far, I've sent in one sample from my 2000 Jetta which the SO drives around town all the time, and one from my '03 K1200RS.

The Jetta was running Mobil1 15~50 Extended life oil. This is advertised as being guaranteed for 15,000 miles or one year. I had 7,500 miles on this oil, but one year of service. I didn't break this engine in right so it uses some oil: I added 3qts over that mileage, which should help extend the service life. Their tests said the oil was shot and I should try a 5,500 mile interval next time. I believe Mobil1 is a top shelf product, so this told me the in town, short trip driving was way harder on the oil than I imagined. VW recommends a 7,000 mile oil change interval. I've since changed to Mobil1 0~40 which it turns out is one of the few oils meeting the VW spec. - the 15~50 Extended does not.

The K12RS oil (BMW 15~50 synthetic) OTOH had 4,500 miles and no oil added (I learned my break-in lesson from the Jetta :)) Their tests said I should try 5,500 next time - plenty of life left. BMW recommends a 6,000 mile change cycle. Usually my bikes get lots of long mile runs, but this oil had a lot of 10 mile one-way commutes.

Blackstone has a database of vehicle and oil information so the report they send you compares your sample to their averages, plus they build a history for your vehicle that will grow to show changes over time. Their basic test is $20 and another $10 for an extended use (prediction) test. They will send you kits for free you use to mail in your samples.

This isn't something I'm going to do all the time, but considering the cost of good oils (and filters), the cost of the machinery, the fact that I'm a little anal about oil :brow, and the time and labor involved in changes, I figure a few bux spent to get real data will give me peace of mind and save money in the long run. I'm sure there are other testing companies, these are just the folks I heard about from someone on the IBMWR list, and so far I've very pleased with their service.

[shoeman]

If the miles are highway miles 7500 miles between changes with a good dinosaur oil will not affect the engines life or performance. The best thing about synthetics is their ability to maintain viscosity throughout their life. If the driving involves long idling periods in traffic then a synthetic might be indicated. Three factors have driven the desire to change oil at 3000 mile intervals. One- high reving four cylinder motors in city traffic. Two- Highly profitable quick lube franchises looking to increase business and three- peoples belief that more maintenance is better, even when not called for. Sixty years ago Kendall Oil built a reputation when they developed an oil that would go 2000 miles between changes- hence the familiar Kendall logo of two fingers. Today modern oils because of their additives will go far further. It is ecologically more sound to change oil every 5000-7500 miles if you are not running around in the city. You will, however disappoint your oil vendor or quick lube franchise by spending less with them.

[cjack]

Folks,

Sorry to talk about the cage, but I have an 05 Honda Pilot and we're really racking up the mileage on it. I want to go synthetic to reduce the frequency of my oil changes, perhaps 6.5 to 7K between changes. Any thoughts on a good brand (castrol syntec?) and success with such a plan in general?

Thanks,

ST

We have a pilot and I run Mobil 1 synth in it and the Tundra truck. I think 10W30. I change the oil at about 7500 miles or so.

[jdmetzger]

I've been running Mobile1 in my last ranger, and now in the new one. I have issues with a heavy foot, and I like to run it up before shifting. That being said, the last truck never consumed a drop of oil in all that time. Even though it's pricey, I still changed my oil around 3000 miles (unless it was the dead of winter and too cold for me to do) because I'm pretty picky about my vehicle care. I like the mobile1, for sure. If I wasn't afraid of the old seals on my airhead leaking the synthetic stuff, I'd probably run it there, too.

[osbornk]

Over the last 25 years I have used Synthetic, conventional and blended oils. I found no differences in the perofrmance of any of them. The fuel mileage didn't change and my K bike and my airhead seeped oil with synthetic and didn't with the others. In my cars, I change oil and filter at 5,000 miles. The last two vehicles I got rid of (sold one to a cousin and gave one to a daughter) had almost 180,000 miles each. One used the same amount of oil it used since it was new and the other never moved off of full. That was with conventional oil. One of my current vehicles has 104,000+ and the other has 97,000 miles and they have no issues. I use Motorcraft synthetic blend in them because it is only $ .14 per quart more than Havoline conventional at WalMart. My son-in-law (an engineer) has 240,000 miles on his Avalon and it uses no (conventional) oil at all. When the engines will outlast the rest of the car with conventional oil, what is the reason to use synthetic?

[hlothery]

Folks,

Sorry to talk about the cage, but I have an 05 Honda Pilot and we're really racking up the mileage on it. I want to go synthetic to reduce the frequency of my oil changes, perhaps 6.5 to 7K between changes. Any thoughts on a good brand (castrol syntec?) and success with such a plan in general?

Thanks,

ST
a new Porsche comes with Mobil 1 in the engine, and a recommendation in the owners manual to use nothing else. That's good enough for me! :german

[Burnszilla]

www.le-inc.com
This stuff is great. It's for long interval changes. Been running it in our Xterra for 6 years now.

[rinty]

Screwtop:

I had this discussion a few weeks ago with an acquaintance of mine who is a professional race engine builder (one of his dragster engines powered a customer's car to a world record a couple of years ago). He's also built and re-built hundreds of high performance street engines. I asked him what he thought of Volkswagen and Audi's current suggested (synthetic) oil change intervals of 8,000 km (5,000 miles). He felt that that would be absolute maximum he would run an engine between changes, provided that the regular driving cycles were long enough to enable the engine to get fully up to temperature, allowing moisture in the oil to be cooked off. Your 84 mile cycle should be long enough to enable that.

He also told me that it was his experience that there is a direct correlation between engine wear and frequency of oil changes.

As for whether to use synthetic oil, my practise is to use it only in air cooled engines, turbocharged engines, or in expensive engines that are subjected to extreme cold weather operation. Some years ago Consumer Union did an extended oil test on a fleet of New York cabs, and they found no difference in wear between engines that had been run on synthetic and those that had been run on dino oil. And your Honda's engine, being liquid cooled, is not under much stress.

Rinty

Rinty

[screwtop]

Screwtop:

I had this discussion a few weeks ago with an acquaintance of mine who is a professional race engine builder (one of his dragster engines powered a customer's car to a world record a couple of years ago). He's also built and re-built hundreds of high performance street engines. I asked him what he thought of Volkswagen and Audi's current suggested (synthetic) oil change intervals of 8,000 km (5,000 miles). He felt that that would be absolute maximum he would run an engine between changes, provided that the regular driving cycles were long enough to enable the engine to get fully up to temperature, allowing moisture in the oil to be cooked off. Your 84 mile cycle should be long enough to enable that.

He also told me that it was his experience that there is a direct correlation between engine wear and frequency of oil changes.

As for whether to use synthetic oil, my practise is to use it only in air cooled engines, turbocharged engines, or in expensive engines that are subjected to extreme cold weather operation. Some years ago Consumer Union did an extended oil test on a fleet of New York cabs, and they found no difference in wear between engines that had been run on synthetic and those that had been run on dino oil. And your Honda's engine, being liquid cooled, is not under much stress.

Rinty

Rinty

Well thank you, Rinty and others who have offered their advise. I think that I'll probably stick with conventional oil for now. All things considered, I can't seem to get past the idea of exceeding 3,000 to 3,500 miles between oil changes, probably because it's been drilled into my head for so long. I may not save much time, but at least I'll save some $$$.

[GlobalRider]

Any thoughts on a good brand (castrol syntec?) and success with such a plan in general?

Mobil 1 Synthetic

I've been running it in my 1999 Honda CR-V since the first inspection. My Honda Owner's Manual actually approves the use of synthetic. Use the grade recommended.

I run 10 to 11K kilometers (6500 miles) between oil changes without a single concern and even that is over doing it. At 55K miles, I checked the valve clearances and noticed that the cam lobes weren't even scuffed in the slightest...they looked like the day they were installed and those cams see plenty of -15°F early morning starts.

One of the engineers at work is running Mobil 1 synthetic in his BMW 330 Ci and he changes it every 20,000 kilometers (12,000+ miles). He even gets the drained oil checked in the lubricants lab upstairs...still good to use, the chemists say. His car is a 1999 or 2000.

[GregFeeler]

Well thank you, Rinty and others who have offered their advise. I think that I'll probably stick with conventional oil for now. All things considered, I can't seem to get past the idea of exceeding 3,000 to 3,500 miles between oil changes, probably because it's been drilled into my head for so long. I may not save much time, but at least I'll save some $$$.

As you wish, but I'll suggest thinking about spending a few bux on some oil sample tests which might be very informative. :thumb

[PHMarvin]

Hi,
I don't have a Honda Pilot, but I do have a 2001 Accord LX with the 4-cylinder engine. Honda recommends 5w20 oil. Since I live in El Paso, TX and (was) driving long, high-speed (sometimes over 100mph) runs in Mexico, I decided I'd use Mobil 1 10w30 and change oil and filter every 7500 miles. I did that for 150k miles. I am now changing oil and filter every 10k miles. The car has 183k miles on it and I've never had any problem with it. After about 8k miles, it is down about a quart, though.

[GregFeeler]

Hi,
I don't have a Honda Pilot, but I do have a 2001 Accord LX with the 4-cylinder engine. Honda recommends 5w20 oil. Since I live in El Paso, TX and (was) driving long, high-speed (sometimes over 100mph) runs in Mexico, I decided I'd use Mobil 1 10w30 and change oil and filter every 7500 miles. I did that for 150k miles. I am now changing oil and filter every 10k miles. The car has 183k miles on it and I've never had any problem with it. After about 8k miles, it is down about a quart, though.


That's excellent performance. I have to interject here, especially for those of us who grew up in a time where a 100,000 mile engine was almost unheard of, that it's clear both the quality of modern engines and lubricants boarders on amazing. 200,000 miles is pretty common, and a well-cared-for vehicle with 100,000 miles still has a long live. Pretty cool, IMHO. :clap

[BONEY]

I run the same 20-50 Amsoil synthetic in all my vehicles except the F650GS. Amsoil claims 1 year or 25,000 miles.

The Jetta has a recommended 5000 mile drain interval. I've been changing it every 10,000 miles since the warranty ended with no untoward effects. At 100,000 miles, it runs fantastic and I have no reservations about running the oil to this mileage. Here's why:

I have a Jeep Cherokee with 180,000 miles on it. I change the oil every spring and the filter every 10k. It burns a quart in that amount of time so I top off about half a quart in the fall. I never put 25k on it a year, more like 10-15k. It runs like a champ. I use their synthetic tranny oil in it, and change that every two years. If I could get Amsoil for the body, interior and electrical system, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. The motor and transmission/transfer case and differentials are the least of my worries on this car.

Every 6k on the RT. Why? I dunno. I suppose I could run it longer, but I don't.

The F650GS get straight 20-50 Castrol GTX. I noticed that the Amsoil gets a small layer of froth on this bike. Same for their motorcycle specific oil. Not sure what's going on here, but the GTX does not. So I use it.

If you choose a good synthetic oil, you will more than likely have a similar experience, regardless of brand.

[userw5]

That's excellent performance. I have to interject here, especially for those of us who grew up in a time where a 100,000 mile engine was almost unheard of, that it's clear both the quality of modern engines and lubricants boarders on amazing. 200,000 miles is pretty common, and a well-cared-for vehicle with 100,000 miles still has a long live. Pretty cool, IMHO. :clap

We (my parents) had a 1966 Chevrolet Impala station wagon which went 180k before it needed a rebuild. The transmission lasted 250k. Preventative maintenance.

[hlothery]

Mobil 1 Synthetic


One of the engineers at work is running Mobil 1 synthetic in his BMW 330 Ci and he changes it every 20,000 kilometers (12,000+ miles). He even gets the drained oil checked in the lubricants lab upstairs...still good to use, the chemists say. His car is a 1999 or 2000.


My cars in the past, 2001 BMW X5, 2006 Mini Cooper S, both had on board computers that told me when to change the oil. They averaged 17,000 miles between changes, using BMW synthetic (which I think is Castrol). My Porsche's first service interval for oil change is 20,000. Only in America is oil changed every three thousand miles, no one in Europe does that. We are wasting millions of gallons of oil each year, in my opinion, unnecessarily...it's simply marketing. In the military, where we had to submit oil samples, and could not change oil until they showed breakdown products, we used to run trucks 15,000 miles on cheap, bulk grade dino oil. I know this is controversial......not trying to start a flame war. Just my humble opinion. :wave

[The_Veg]

It's been 23K since I changed oil (Castrol Synthetic) in my 2002 VW GTI (turbocharged). No ill effects, but I guess I should probably do it soon.

[GregFeeler]

It's been 23K since I changed oil (Castrol Synthetic) in my 2002 VW GTI (turbocharged). No ill effects, but I guess I should probably do it soon.


That does seem a bit long - any reason for the delay?

[The_Veg]

Greg, it's a combination of things.
1) Brokeness due to self-employment
2) Forgetfulness
3) Procrastination about trying to figure out how long a good realistic interval should be (for the record, the manual says 5K)

[GregFeeler]

Greg, it's a combination of things.
1) Brokeness due to self-employment
2) Forgetfulness
3) Procrastination about trying to figure out how long a good realistic interval should be (for the record, the manual says 5K)


When I was just out of high school I was working in a Buick dealership when a guy brought in his car for an oil change. With the car on the lift, the mechanic pulled the drain plug - but nothing came out. So he sticks a screwdriver into the drain hole and it comes back out with a black gooey substance. Next he pulls the pan. He finds a multi-layer concoction: a liquid oily substance on top with progressively thicker layers going to the outside of the pan. The outer layer was too thick to drain out on it's own.

After a good flush and refill with clean oil that engine rattled like a diesel. Turns out it was too worn out to rebuild cost effectively. The car was three years old and the owner had never changed the oil - it had 55,000 miles on it.

Not trying to freak you out - just a true story. :brow

[GlobalRider]

Only in America is oil changed every three thousand miles, no one in Europe does that. We are wasting millions of gallons of oil each year, in my opinion, unnecessarily...it's simply marketing.

That narrow minded mentality can easily be changed.

Simple, raise the price of things and consumption goes down. In Europe, a 4 liter jug of Synthetic runs at least €60 or US$80.

[DocZ]

Back in early '02, for the first time in my nearly 20 years as a road warrior, my employer went to an allowance pgm and called in all company cars. :violin Turned out to be good - I could get something that actually met my needs vs fleet crap - and bad - your allowance is your allowance and the risk is YOURS, too. Pretty ^$#%$ dumb thing for a company with over a Billion in assets, but I digress....

I bought an '02 Ford Escape with the 6. Converted to Mobil 1 at about 10K miles. Hwy mileage jumped from 23-24 to 24-25. I moved my change intervals from 4k to 5k. I buy it at Sprawl Mart & have the garage (NAPA Premier, Marietta, GA - best I've EVER found for a cage) change it.

Escape was retired from business duty on Dec 1, '06 as the company car pgm returned. 119,000 trouble free miles. Minor ECM glitches early on fixed by factory downloads. Otherwise the most reliable cage ever for me and I'm a 20 to 30K miles/yr guy for 20+ years.

Bottom line on syn - converted my two wheeled friends to it back around 1980 - as we were all about to escape -nyuck - the long, dim, dark of the Carter years.

Wifie's '05 Mini S - BRG, natch! - came from factory with Syn. My R100RT runs syn since initial service. My Honda ST11 has had syn since the day I bought it - had 4K when I bought it.

I'm sold on syn oil. I use mobil 1 in the car, Mini SYN Oil in the Mini, & Spectro full SYN in the bikes. Well, the last time, Rod (MPS Cycles) did put fully syn Motul in the "Fat Lady" aka the ST11.

With my bikes the BIG difference is quality of shifting on the Honda and slightly smoother running on the RT. The RT is also a bit happier on blazing hot days.

We do have an old, early 90's Ford Ranger. It uses only products derived from Carboniferous age deposits. It has over 100K miles, too with minimal trouble none of which was engine related. So much for anecdotal evidence in syn oils favor!

The real bottom line is reasonable drop intervals, an observant driver/rider and good wrenching.

If you worry about this topic - stop now!!

Finally for those not annoyed by cage news: my new company cage is an '07 Camry. Fine car, but this is THE NEW BUICK! Floaty, figity steering. (Yes, tire pressure is fine). Wallows like a hot hog after a summer shower. I've driven and ridden in several others of my - er - "team mates". They all be the same. I'd never have thought this, but the Escape has a more sophisticated feel with respect to steering feedback and suspension feel. We indeed live in a strange world today!!

[Brownie]

I REALLY like Redline products............

my wife's '01 Cabrio gets 8K oil changes with Redline 10w-30

my '98 4 cyl 4 Runner gets 8K oil changes with same oil.

Both cars get low start cycles, and mostly highway driving.

[dlearl476]

a new Porsche comes with Mobil 1 in the engine, and a recommendation in the owners manual to use nothing else. That's good enough for me! :german

That may or may not still be the case. I believe they now recommend Shell, at least in Europe. They do for my 968, but '92 was light years ago, in terms of oil technology.
All that aside, as much as I love both Porsche and Mobil1, I think that had a whole lot more to do with racing sponsorship than oil quality.

[rinty]

I was working in a Buick dealership.... Greg Feeler
My client the engine builder, whom I refer to above, told me about a customer who brought in a small block Corvette for an engine re-build. It was such an oil leaker that the owner hadn't changed it for 25,000 kilometres (which I think was the total mileage) but just kept adding oil. He said that on the tear down, there wasn't a single moving part that was re-usable.
Earlier, he told me about another customer who had run a 460 Lincoln engine for about 60,000 km on synthetic oil without changing it. On the tear down of that engine, the main and connecting rod bearings spec'd out fine, but the cylinders were tapered about .060 of an inch.

Rinty

[BubbaZanetti]

i think i'm gonna switch to the Rotella 5W 40 synth in my car at it's next oil change, it's a 98 corolla that i bought in october with only 26000 miles on it. not sure what it's been getting but i'd like to get a lot of miles on this car before i move on, it fits me well and gets great gas milage.

i've been running the Rotella 5W 40 synth in my bike since early november. consumption seems about the same as other oils i've been using, maybe a little less. i have developed a very small leak (few drops every 1000 miles) from up near the front engine cover, on top, by the alternator. i'm just attributing it to the thinness of the oil and the fact that those were the few bolts i couldn't easiy retorque when i adjusted the front cover bolts 2 years ago.

the Rotella synth is so cheap (15 bucks a gallon) it's almost like buying dino oil. i'll run it in the car year round and in the bike durring the winter time.

[hlothery]

That may or may not still be the case. I believe they now recommend Shell, at least in Europe. They do for my 968, but '92 was light years ago, in terms of oil technology.
.

My 2007 Cayman has Mobil 1 in it, and a recommendation in the owners manual to use nothing else. I realize that there are sponsorships, and that money is an issue. But, when I walk around the paddock at the 24 hours of Daytona or the 12 hours of Sebring and see mostly Mobil 1 cans in the trash....that says a lot to me. But, anyway, just my humble opinion....certainly the other synthetic brands mentioned have a loyal following and a good track record as well. :D

[serazin]

I have an 85 mustang 5.0 with over 320K on it and it has lived on mobil 1 15-50 ever since the break in. Changes at 3.5 to 5K. New filter every time. Oil pressure is still fine. No smoke, passes smog with very clean readings. No repairs.

Redline syn in the tranny and rearend. same story except the fluid changes are at 20 to 50k.

[GregFeeler]

I have an 85 mustang 5.0 with over 320K on it and it has lived on mobil 1 15-50 ever since the break in. Changes at 3.5 to 5K. New filter every time. Oil pressure is still fine. No smoke, passes smog with very clean readings. No repairs.

Redline syn in the tranny and rearend. same story except the fluid changes are at 20 to 50k.

That's impressive! :thumb