instead of lead

[Isamemon]

so someplace here I read a comment by someone saying they run led substitute in their gas
well since my heads are still stock
is this a good thing, to make my seats last longer
does it really work ???????????????

barn find 77 r/80
well USA=78 but build plate says 77

[PHMarvin]

Hi, Isamemon,
I don't know if the lead substitute works or not. I tried it a couple of times when I had a '77 R75/7. Then I found a small airport which would sell me avgas 100LL. I bought it, five gallons at a time, and used a cup or two in each tankful. Then I sold the bike. All you really need is a cup or so per tankful, if you can find an accomodating airport!

[20774]

I've heard that an airport could get some heavy fines for providing leaded gas that is used on the roadways. Years ago, I bought a 5-gallon can of racing fuel, 108 octane, at one of the local motorcycle shops. VP Racing fuels...I was putting a cup or so in every tank. But lead is toxic stuff...I was concerned about handling it. I've been using ValvTect Protective Lead Substitute for quite a few years now. I had heard it was for older marine engines...I used to buy it at West Marine but they stopped carrying it anymore due to the toxicity. I've now resorted to buying it on-line.

Seems to be working for me, or at least causing no harm other than to my wallet. I've got 80K+ miles on my '78 R100/7 and the valve settings have remainder very steady over the years. It does tend to color the plugs and I had my right plug get corroded enough to stop working...probably more attributed to the oil mist being dumped into the right carb than anything.

So far, it works for me...

Kurt in S.A.

[easter85]

Kurt,

Have you had that bike since it was nearly new?

I have a 1978 R80/7 that I have had since new and about at 40,000 miles I noticed my valve settings to begin closing up. I took it to Perry Bushong at BMW of Fort Worth and they put in hardened valves and valve seats. The bike has 79,000 miles and everything is fine other than it is sitting in my garage wrecked since Nov 30th. I have always run Premium Shell Unleaded if possible since leaded gasoline became unavailable in the early 1980's.

Sounds like either what you have been doing is working or somebody might have fixed the problem before you got it. According to Perry about 40K is normal for a valve job on a /7 with the old type valves. Just curious.

[20774]

Kurt,

Have you had that bike since it was nearly new?

I have a 1978 R80/7 that I have had since new and about at 40,000 miles I noticed my valve settings to begin closing up. I took it to Perry Bushong at BMW of Fort Worth and they put in hardened valves and valve seats. The bike has 79,000 miles and everything is fine other than it is sitting in my garage wrecked since Nov 30th. I have always run Premium Shell Unleaded if possible since leaded gasoline became unavailable in the early 1980's.

Sounds like either what you have been doing is working or somebody might have fixed the problem before you got it. According to Perry about 40K is normal for a valve job on a /7 with the old type valves. Just curious.
I'm second owner, but got the bike with 13K miles on it in 1980. I'm inclined to think that the bike is stock with respect to the heads. I did pull the cylinders and replace the rings early on in an attempt to limit the amount of oil usage. It was using around 1 qt per 1000 miles. After the re-ring...1 qt per 1000 miles. It's been that ever since.

Like you, I've run premium gas all the time. I've always used gas from the main suppliers, rather than the Mom-n-Pop and convenience stores. I think there was a period where some particular grades of gas passed the "BMW 100000 mile test". I understood that those gasolines had been used in a continuous engine test program and the weight of the valves were measured before and after the test. Those gasolines resulted in the least amount of deposits on the valves. Most top-grade gasolines have that now, including the Techroline additive.

For many years, after the lead was gone, I used an additive called DurAlt in the gas. I thought I had read in an early MOA News that this was a lead substitute...I may have been wrong on that. I should research that... Then in 2001, I ran the racing fuel as a supplement and since 2002 I've been using the ValvTect.

Update: In the April 1989 News, Dave Parker, tech tip editor, recommended DurAlt Fuel Conditioner. Luftmeister tested it and found it reduced exhaust temperatures. Plus it changed the corrosivity of the exhaust gases reducing the attack on the valve and seat. IIRC, Harley marketed this product for their twins...not sure if they do now.

Knock on wood, I've had no problems with the valves and the clearances. I don't run the bike hard, and thus the amount of heat generation is kept to a minimum. I've taken a handful of long trips to rallys, etc., but most of the miles have been local. I average a couple of thousand miles a year in local riding, but not the down to the store and back variety...I try to get the bike out for a reasonable amount of time to ensure the fluids are all warmed up and the battery is somewhat recharged. I feel short-short trips are very bad for the engine.

Life's been good so far...as far as the bike is concerned! However, I'm sure there will be some work in the future - heads, timing chain, etc. I'm watching things and will jump on them when the warning signs show up...I hope I'm not surprised!!

Kurt in S.A.

[easter85]

Kurt,

I'm not to far from you. I'm down in Victoria.

As for your bike using a quart of oil every 1,000 miles since new; mine had done that also until I switched to Mobil 1 20/50 Synthetic "Air Cooled" Motorcycle Oil many years ago. Immediately my oil consumption went from 1,000 miles per quart to somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 miles per quart.

My theory is that the Synthetic doesn't vaporize when hot at as low a temperature as the regular oil. I change my oil and filter every 5,000 miles. I like you don't do much town trip driving. A short trip for me is about 35 miles to go eat breakfast in a neighboring town. I rode my bike to Canada in 2001 and to Alaska and back in 2004.

I also have a BMW oil cooler on my bike with thermostat; but, I had that on the bike long before I swithched to Mobil 1. Please note I am not talking about Mobil 1 automobile oil.

My bike is all original except for the valve upgrades done at 40,000 miles. It now has 79,000 miles.

[easter85]

The correct name of that Mobil 1 Oil is: Mobil One air cooled "V-Twin" 20/50 Motorcycle Oil. I think they named it this to get the Harley folks to buy it. It is about $8 per quart at AutoZone and they carry it at some Wal-Marts.

[lkchris]

Leaded gasoline is a stupid topic.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20000320/kitman

[pmdave]

Back in the Good Old Days, while BMW was still screwing around with different valve/seat materials and angles, I tried a number of "lead substitutes to attempt to control seat recession on my R100 sidecar puller. Still, with the stock 1980 setup, I could go through .006" clearance in one day.

Since BMW engineers finally came up with a valve combination that works reasonably well, I've had the heads reworked to the latest specs. It's still necessary to set the valves every 2 - 3 thousand miles, but I haven't had the same sort of problems.

My take: lead substitutes don't do much--other than provide a nice income to the aftermarket product folks.

My suggestion: yank those older heads off and get the seats/valves up to 1995-on specs. You won't be polluting the environment, risking fines, or spilling the dang smelly stuff in your saddlebags.

It doesn't take much time to pull the heads or replace them, and you'll have some shop do the actual valve work. It might even be cheaper than "lead substitutes" over the span of a year or two.

pmdave

[Isamemon]

thanks all

[lkchris]

Since BMW engineers finally came up with a valve combination that works ...

FWIW, when lead was phased out in the first world, Mercedes announced that every gasoline engine it had ever built would be fine with unleaded gasoline.

[Isamemon]

but I ride a bmw, not a benz
and from what Im reading , benz did not share the info with thier "brothers of the father land"

[sarmand]

Lead is indeed bad stuff, but it had one undeniable quality. TEL, tetraethyl lead, is an excellent octane number improver. P-51s weren't going to run on low-octane automotive fuel. There has been a concerted effort for years to make an unleaded fuel for piston-engine aircraft certified for 100 octane fuel. So far, there has been no success. Octel is the last remaining producer of TEL, and the future for these planes is uncertain. I think the real solution is in adopting modern ignition systems like we have in cars and motorcycles, but between the lawyers and the FAA, it's an uphill battle. I ran a mix of 100LL avgas in bikes for years, but the real solution is replacing valve seats with modern substitutes. We'll certainly all be better off when leaded gas is just a footnote in history.

[flash412]

My suggestion: yank those older heads off and get the seats/valves up to 1995-on specs. You won't be polluting the environment, risking fines, or spilling the dang smelly stuff in your saddlebags.+1

[Isamemon]

i agree that lead is a bad thing in the environemnt , and I guess I wasnt really thinking when I asked about lead substitutes
at the time I was being selfish and just thinking about my heads
I guess thats part of the problem is just....... thinking about ourself, myself...
now with 60k on the scooter, guess its time for "no lead seats" and valves