R1150GS Still Surging

[groeger]

OK, due to the member advice I received last week, this past weekend I replaced the air filter, adjusted the valves, and syncd the throttle bodies (Twinmax) on my 2001 R1150GS purchased a week ago. The surging has been greatly reduced by 80% or so, however, I'm still experiencing surging in the lower speeds approx. 20 - 40 MPH. I'll get back to you later this week on whether or not gas mileage has improved.

Any advice would be appreciated on further reducing the low speed surging.

Thanks.

[KilroyWasHere]

OK, due to the member advice I received last week, this past weekend I replaced the air filter, adjusted the valves, and syncd the throttle bodies (Twinmax) on my 2001 R1150GS purchased a week ago. The surging has been greatly reduced by 80% or so, however, I'm still experiencing surging in the lower speeds approx. 20 - 40 MPH. I'll get back to you later this week on whether or not gas mileage has improved.

Any advice would be appreciated on further reducing the low speed surging.

Thanks.

Hi there,

I didn't read your post last week, but I just had issues with the "stick coils" on my 04' 1150GSA. Both the left and right main spark plug cap ("Stick Coil") had failed.

It kept running, but somewhat sluggish and it surged at low idle.

I don't know what gas mileage you are getting, but my slightly lower geared Adv. gets about 37 mpg doing 75 on the freeway.

Anders

[j-budimlya]

OK, due to the member advice I received last week, this past weekend I replaced the air filter, adjusted the valves, and syncd the throttle bodies (Twinmax) on my 2001 R1150GS purchased a week ago. The surging has been greatly reduced by 80% or so, however, I'm still experiencing surging in the lower speeds approx. 20 - 40 MPH. I'll get back to you later this week on whether or not gas mileage has improved.

Any advice would be appreciated on further reducing the low speed surging.

Thanks.

Checked and adjusted the TB sync while riding the bike??

You can strap it to the tank, and check while riding....

[groeger]

I did check while riding.

[j-budimlya]

You did not mention New Plugs?

have you cahnged the plugs....I once had a similar situation, thought the plugs must be fine,,not too many miles on them...changed the plugs and it ran like a clock...

you have not mentioned the number of miles on the bike??

How many miles are on the current throttle cables?

[groeger]

21,000 miles on the bike and the throttle cables.

[deilenberger]

Hi there,

I didn't read your post last week, but I just had issues with the "stick coils" on my 04' 1150GSA. Both the left and right main spark plug cap ("Stick Coil") had failed.
AndersAnders - his 2001 doesn't have the dual-plug head or stick-coils.. which is probably a blessing considering the reputation for reliability these coils are getting..

[deilenberger]

A FWIW, and YMMV and all that..

On a 2001 - this doesn't surprise me. I'd suggest either a Techlusion or Power-Commander FI add-in. It allows you to adjust the mixture, and the lean mixture at steady throttle below around 3,000 seems to be a major cause of surging.

It's either that - or consider a dual-plug-head conversion - there are several places offering this modification as a kit (with you sending your heads in to be modified..)

[rinty]

Groeger:

My '02 RS was surging so bad I could feel it even in fifth. I just had a minor service done on it by my local specialist (Anderwerks) and they got it all out. You might try a professional tune up by a good shop before you go with the Techlusion. Also, you can reduce the surging by riding at lower revs (2,000 to 3,000) in the lower gears (1st to 4th). Good luck.

Rinty

[Stuff2C]

surging sucks...Techlusion works...just spend the $$$$$$$ :deal

[DarkCloud]

What minimum rpm in 4th, 5th, and 6th is required before the surging stops?

JON

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

surging sucks...Techlusion works...just spend the $$$$$$$ :deal


+1

[aaaaaa]

surging sucks...Techlusion works...just spend the $$$$$$$.
That's what worked for me! Everything else failed to cure it!
robert 00R1100RT

[j-budimlya]

At 20k miles, I'd suggest that you change out the throttle cables....mine were shot by that time....BTW, they are physically OK, but they no longer slide easily in the teflon sheath and this little bit of mis-match can be hard to control.....

BTW, are you doing a complete throttle sync, which requires loosening all the throttle cable connections, and then starting from there....? I have seen bikes where one or both of the TB's are not really seated at the stop, and then the balancing in very hard to achieve....you get it right, you think, but at operating rates...it is always off......

If I were you, I'd put a new set of cables on, and make sure I adjusted them right....although you sort of have to do it right if you put on new cables.... :D

BTW, is one of you spark plugs a different color than the other, if so, it just proves that the balance is not equal.....

good luck...

Just so you know, I have the same bike....and all is well.....with it..

[BradfordBenn]

I got a good balance on my RT and the surging stopped. Might be a less expensive first step.

[JimMoore]

Try a set of Autolite 3923 Platinums, gapped at .031". Cost about $1.50 apiece. Freakin' miracle cure for the surging on my '02 R1150GS.

[Stuff2C]

A test worth taking on any oilhead.

Warm your bike to operating temperature and then try to hold a steady 2k rpm's in neutral. Use a throttle lock if you wish.

You can with a techlusion.:D

[j-budimlya]

A test worth taking on any oilhead.

Warm your bike to operating temperature and then try to hold a steady 2k rpm's in neutral. Use a throttle lock if you wish.

You can with a techlusion.:D

BTW, My '01 1150Gs will do this without a Techlusiion....just a good tune up...

[DMilan]

OK, due to the member advice I received last week, this past weekend I replaced the air filter, adjusted the valves, and syncd the throttle bodies (Twinmax) on my 2001 R1150GS purchased a week ago. The surging has been greatly reduced by 80% or so, however, I'm still experiencing surging in the lower speeds approx. 20 - 40 MPH. I'll get back to you later this week on whether or not gas mileage has improved.

Any advice would be appreciated on further reducing the low speed surging.

Thanks.


Gawd....

I hoped to never really think or write about the S word again. But since you asked.

A couple years back I owned an '02 1150RT.
Bought it used and never test rode it. It was soo clean and beautiful, and with 9,000ish miles and a warranty, what could be wrong?
Surged terribly.
Rushed the 12K service, surged a bit worse. Took it back to the dealer, no improvement.
Stripped off the bodywork and took it to a different BMW dealer for t-b balance, no change.
Bought the feelers and a Twinmax so I could do it myself. Balanced it spot on, still surged.
Out of desparation I pulled the LPB. The folks over at BMWSportouring .com
acronym for Little Pink Bastard , a relay in the fusebox.
Immediate 80 - 90% improvement.
Didn't start as well and I was getting a bit bothered by the boxer vibes at this point so I sold it.
It burned an exhaust valve on the new owner in fairly short order.

Rider Magazine tested an R1150R and an RT in one of their 2002 issues. I still have the articles in a hanging file labeled "surging". Both bikes surged when brand new during the tests. The writer questioned why this well known condition had not been remedied.


I still ride BMW because of some of the unique features.... abs, cruise, electric screens, htd grips etc.(and the community of BMW riders and associated functions) but that experience was not good.

Knowing what I know now, if I had to do it over again I guess I would try the Techlusion.

DMilan
'04GT
'05GS no surge

[bmwmick]

OK, due to the member advice I received last week, this past weekend I replaced the air filter, adjusted the valves, and syncd the throttle bodies (Twinmax) on my 2001 R1150GS purchased a week ago. The surging has been greatly reduced by 80% or so, however, I'm still experiencing surging in the lower speeds approx. 20 - 40 MPH. I'll get back to you later this week on whether or not gas mileage has improved.

Any advice would be appreciated on further reducing the low speed surging.

Thanks.

Sure,
Remove the CCP (it's a jumper in the relay box) as Dmilan suggested. Your surging will be at least 90% gone. :)

PS I removed the CCP on my '96 R1100RT in early 1996 while working to eliminate the horrible surging. I now have about 56K on the bike with no surge and consistantly getting 40-45MPG at speeds under 85.

[DarkCloud]

I'd take the bike back to the shop, and have a 24K/Annual service done. The shop will put the bike on the computer and set everything back to factory specs. Odds are you have a non-simple problem, or several small problems that are making it very hard to find what is causing the surging. Age and UV damage problems can be showing up. Things like an air leaks in the bellows gasket, bad fuel, plugged fuel filter, bad or improperly installed plug wires all manifest themselves on an oil head as surging.

Have you pulled the battery cables off the bike and let it set overnight, and hooked the battery back up?

If you are running below 3500 rpm in 4th, 5th, or 6th gear the 1150's will surge or "lug". Techlusions, pulling the CCP, and having the chip burn't just dump more gas on the problem to solve it. Lower gas mileage, and dirty oil is about all you will get from these remedies.

JON

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Speaking of Techlusion...a while ago another member posted that he/she turned down the Techlusion, basically turning it off but leaving it in place, and it ran fine. I had to try that as it was something that I had never tried before. I was curious if it was possible to lean it out too much.

Amazingly enough, my bike runs well, still no surge (it did surge before techlusion, even after multiple dealer visits and synching and etc etc) and the gas mileage has increased slightly too. The power has not suffered and the plugs are looking even with the left side and so I do not feel that it is too lean.

I just thought that I would share that since reading the above comment about dumping more fuel on the problem. It was an interesting test is all with surprising results. Okay back to normal programming now...lol

[j-budimlya]

someone might be able to invite you over for a bit of a tech day to see if you problem can be easily solved...

Baring this, a good 24k tuneup by a quality dealer may be the next best choice....

With proper care these bikes can run great....most of the time :german

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

On an '04 GS dual spark what kind of Autolite plugs are used please? Aren't there two different kinds? I just looked in the Autolite online catalog and it only lists 1130cc up to 2003. I was just wondering if somebody has purchased any for a dual spark?...thanks

[DarkCloud]

Pudgypaintguy, you have a dual spark oilhead? What is the purpose of the second plug? When does it fire?

JON

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Pudgypaintguy, you have a dual spark oilhead? What is the purpose of the second plug? When does it fire?

JON


I believe the purpose of the second plug (that is below the head as you look at the head from the side of the bike) is to scavenge the remaining un-burned fuel in the combustion chamber, or to put it another way just to improve the burn within the engine to clean the emissions for regualatory purposes. It does not eliminate the surge as some may claim as this bike has had surge despite dealer services and careful adjustments. It is my understanding that it fires at the same time as the plug at the top/end of the head.

[deilenberger]

I believe the purpose of the second plug (that is below the head as you look at the head from the side of the bike) is to scavenge the remaining un-burned fuel in the combustion chamber, or to put it another way just to improve the burn within the engine to clean the emissions for regualatory purposes. It does not eliminate the surge as some may claim as this bike has had surge despite dealer services and careful adjustments. It is my understanding that it fires at the same time as the plug at the top/end of the head.I don't believe that was the reason for the 2nd plug. Trying to fire a charge across a piston surface as wide as the oilhead has can be difficult... especially when you're running a lean mixture. The second plug allows the burn to start in two places, resulting in a complete burn even with the leaner mixture.

I don't know of any of the 2 plug head engines that have the surge problems the single plug engines were prone to. I have had no surge at all on my '04.. and I rode a friends '03 single-plugger that was supposed to be "good" - and I could feel the surge immediately.

It might not have been the intent of the 2 plug head - but the result was - surge became a non-issue for the vast majority of people.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

I don't know of any of the 2 plug head engines that have the surge problems the single plug engines were prone to. I have had no surge at all on my '04.. and I rode a friends '03 single-plugger that was supposed to be "good" - and I could feel the surge immediately.

It might not have been the intent of the 2 plug head - but the result was - surge became a non-issue for the vast majority of people.


Well you know of one now...mine is an '04 and it did surge, and the dealer could not make it stop either, neither could other attempts to adjust everything just so. You were very lucky not to have the problem is all that I can say.

[deilenberger]

Well you know of one now...mine is an '04 and it did surge, and the dealer could not make it stop either, neither could other attempts to adjust everything just so. You were very lucky not to have the problem is all that I can say.Very odd... but I suspect the Techlusion might help you.

I had an intermittent drone at continuous high-speed (70-80 PHM in 6th gear) that was somewhat annoying. I suspect it was the FI adjusting itself from a too-lean to just-lean-enough state. The duty cycle was about 1 second. No "surge" - just an annoying change in vibration. The Techlusion completely eliminated this. It also made it possible to tune out the overly annoying vibration/buzz I had in my bars..

Since it sounds as if you've tried everything else, be worth trying the Techlusion.

BTW - did the "everything just so" include checking for intake leaks? Just curious..

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Very odd... but I suspect the Techlusion might help you.

I had an intermittent drone at continuous high-speed (70-80 PHM in 6th gear) that was somewhat annoying. I suspect it was the FI adjusting itself from a too-lean to just-lean-enough state. The duty cycle was about 1 second. No "surge" - just an annoying change in vibration. The Techlusion completely eliminated this. It also made it possible to tune out the overly annoying vibration/buzz I had in my bars..

Since it sounds as if you've tried everything else, be worth trying the Techlusion.

BTW - did the "everything just so" include checking for intake leaks? Just curious..


Thanks and yes the Techlusion took care of the problem just fine and has ever since. The intakes were checked for leaks too at that time, well after the second dealer visit I think it was. It really seems as though it is a sporadic affliction on random bikes rather than a guaranteed occurence on every machine. I was unlucky to have had the surge but lucky to have heard about the Techlusion before the discontent set in.

I love riding this bike, and I do like the slow lane riding too, and I would hate to follow the advice of some that have posted in the past, and just ride past it and keep the revs high just to ignore an obvious defect. Thanks again for your input,
Andy

[groeger]

OK, I decided to adjust the valves again and sync the TBs this past weekend. I'm still experiencing surges at 25 - 35 MPH. This is irritating because this is the speed for our on and off ramps. When I ride with the Twinmax in this range, the needle is right at zero. Any advise would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[chrisZ]

Pull the pink bastard. Reset the TPS. Take a ride. Let us know the results.

[Stuff2C]

If your leisure time is worth anything at all you have already spent to much on "tuning" the surge out of your bike. The way I understand the techlusion works (very short version) is:
The single 02 sensor can not feed the info of lean rich fast enough to the computer (thus the hunt/surge), the Techlusion gives a steady fuel delivery during that lean message. It is a fuel delivery system only, so over turning the pots only adds to much fuel. I did have mine overtuned for sometime thinking more is better, not a good thing. I ended up only adding fuel at the critical surge range and heavy throttle then turned the other pots to the off mode.

Seems to me this is why BMW has added the second 02 sensor to the newer line of bikes and has solved the surge issue forever (we hope).

"Techlusion" is your answer! It's worth a $$ back if not satisfied guarantee. Worth a shot? It was for me.

[groeger]

What is the "little pink bastard". Also, does the Techlusion reduce MPG? Also, can anyone explain why the Autolite spark plugs are so much better than the stock BMW plugs, other than price. There's alot of threads recommending replacing the stock plugs with Autolite.

As always thanks for the info.

[deilenberger]

What is the "little pink bastard". Also, does the Techlusion reduce MPG? Also, can anyone explain why the Autolite spark plugs are so much better than the stock BMW plugs, other than price. There's alot of threads recommending replacing the stock plugs with Autolite.

As always thanks for the info.Way too many questions in one paragraph.

LPB - is the "code plug" that tells the engine control which engine it's controlling. Removing it put the system in "open-loop" mode where it ignores the O2 sensor and runs off a default fuel map. I personally don't recommend it except as a test to see if it solves the surging. I have heard (haven't proven it myself) that the default map is rich enough to cause damage to the O2 sensor and catalytic converter.

Techlusion might reduce MPG if you have it set overly rich. The engines from the factory are tuned for minimal emissions. This is not where the engine runs the most efficiently, or smoothly. The loss in MPG from a Techlusion is up to the owner - how you adjust it.

I don't know if the Autolite plugs are "so much better" than the stock ones - and I don't know of any recommended Autolites for the 1150 engines. Rob Lentini's recommendation was on the 1100 series engines, which used a different ECU and I believe a different standard plug.

As someone suggested - a Techlusion is very likely to solve your surge problem. One question though - what RPM are you running in the on/off-ramps? Surge seems to be a real problem for people at around 2-3,000 RPM, perhaps running a higher RPM (lower gear) might move you out of the range where it's annoying to you.

[groeger]

Thanks for the info. Teh RPMs are running at 2500 to 3500 while on the on and off ramps.

[Stuff2C]

What is the "little pink bastard". Also, does the Techlusion reduce MPG? Also, can anyone explain why the Autolite spark plugs are so much better than the stock BMW plugs, other than price. There's alot of threads recommending replacing the stock plugs with Autolite.

As always thanks for the info.


This certainly is bringing back memories. My quest to "fix" my R1100GS that BMW refused to acknowledge had a problem and it was BAD. After MANY trips to the dealer and bitching like a girl (sorry ladies). I did my own fix.
There were two cat code plugs, pink (USA), yellow (Euro NO cat). The reason BMW claimed a no problem, was the Euro spec bikes had no cat (most of the sales were euro spec), thus no 02 sensor, so no surge. I converted my 95 R1100GS to euro specs. Yellow cat plug, unplugged the 02 sensor, bought a Bosch attenuator(?) that plugged into the harness under the rear seat (to adjust the CO), I also did the 0 to 0 throttle body adjustment. I eliminated the surge and my mileage suffered a little. I rode it that way for quite some time (4-5 years).
I then met the guys (Mark and the tech from Baileys) from Techlusion at one of the MOA nationals (Morganton?) and they put my R1100GS back to stock specs and installed a Techlusion box. No surge at all! My mileage improved significantly and it ran better than it had ever run. Of coarse me being me I could not leave well enough alone and messed with it until I screwed it up more than once. But, the guy I sold the bike to now has over 120k trouble free miles on it.

I installed one on my 650 Dakar and it did make it a bit more peppy for a 650. After having liter plus bikes for so long the 650 was gutless and had to go. But the Techlusion worked as advertised.

All of the above is MVHO and experiences of course and should not be taken as gospel :nyah

[kenk]

This certainly is bringing back memories. My quest to "fix" my R1100GS that BMW refused to acknowledge had a problem and it was BAD. After MANY trips to the dealer and bitching like a girl (sorry ladies). I did my own fix.
There were two cat code plugs, pink (USA), yellow (Euro NO cat). The reason BMW claimed a no problem, was the Euro spec bikes had no cat (most of the sales were euro spec), thus no 02 sensor, so no surge. I converted my 95 R1100GS to euro specs. Yellow cat plug, unplugged the 02 sensor, bought a Bosch attenuator(?) that plugged into the harness under the rear seat (to adjust the CO), I also did the 0 to 0 throttle body adjustment. I eliminated the surge and my mileage suffered a little. I rode it that way for quite some time (4-5 years).
I then met the guys (Mark and the tech from Baileys) from Techlusion at one of the MOA nationals (Morganton?) and they put my R1100GS back to stock specs and installed a Techlusion box. No surge at all! My mileage improved significantly and it ran better than it had ever run. Of coarse me being me I could not leave well enough alone and messed with it until I screwed it up more than once. But, the guy I sold the bike to now has over 120k trouble free miles on it.

I installed one on my 650 Dakar and it did make it a bit more peppy for a 650. After having liter plus bikes for so long the 650 was gutless and had to go. But the Techlusion worked as advertised.

All of the above is MVHO and experiences of course and should not be taken as gospel :nyah

Several years ago Paul Glaves posted my letter on my testing of the Techlusion 83i in the tech section of BMWON magazine. This article is still posted on the IBMWR.com, although should be removed since few 83i's still exist. Afterwards, Techlusion's Mark Dobeck provided me free of charge the TFI1050 and then later the R259 for testing with Battley Cycle. All three eliminate surging on oilheads.

Most of my posting at that time were on the bmwsporttouring.com forum where I received so much grief from the so called experts that I finally pulled the plug or more correctly, had the plug pulled. Although I had literally hundreds of emails from riders that cured their surging with Techlusion products, this site brought out the worst in me and it simply wasn't worth the energy to continue. I do get some satisfaction from the fact that I was right all along.

The bottom line..after nearly 100,000 miles on my RT with a Techlusion of some sort, the valves and pistons are almost carbon free and the bike is totally surge free. The exhaust has not carboned up and the bike runs great....minus a couple miles per gallon. I would have sold the bike years ago if it wasn't for Techlusion products. It's still my favorite bike in the garage.

[deilenberger]

Big snip..
The bottom line..after nearly 100,000 miles on my RT with a Techlusion of some sort, the valves and pistons are almost carbon free and the bike is totally surge free. The exhaust has not carboned up and the bike runs great....minus a couple miles per gallon. I would have sold the bike years ago if it wasn't for Techlusion products. It's still my favorite bike in the garage.Interesting.. glad to hear no carbon problems. I've heard this from people - but never from people who actually experienced it - always one of those "it's gotta do it" or "I know a guy who knows a guy" sorta things.

Ditto on the Techlusion making the difference between keeping a bike and selling it. I wouldn't have kept the R1150RS if I hadn't had luck with the Techlusion. I didn't have a real surge problem - I had a vibration (buzz) that to me was about intolerable.. I found I could tune it out with the Techlusion by just watching how the mirrors vibrate (watching the reflection in them) at about 2,500 RPM and adjusting the green overall mixture pot.

I'd done everything else people try (TB sync, valve adjust, etc. etc. etc..) - and nothing really did it until I put the Techlusion on the bike.

Ended up in a rather heated discussion with someone on the SportTouring forum about the 259 and the competition Power-Commander-III. This person didn't think it was a good thing to be able to tweak the mixture on the fly like you can with a Techlusion.. he thought the computer programming of the PC-III was the only way to go. I had to disagree - there is no way I would have found the mixture setting that eliminates +80% of my buzz tuning the bike by dumping maps to the device. The pots made it REALLY easy. And they made it easy to do a quick touchup when I was on a ride and got a crap tank of fuel.. a few seconds with my tiny screwdriver and I was a happy rider again.

Good product.

[groeger]

Thanks for all the info. I will also add that my dealer has also referenced Techlusion. May be the way to go.

[groeger]

I didn't see the a pink control code plug. There are some pink fuses. Is the control code plug about 1 inch square? If so, I may have a yellow one.

[chrisZ]

Yes, they are one inch square. Pull it, reset the morontronik :D Go for a ride. Report back.

Chris...