Campers turned away at the National

[Rasbutan]

I'm new to this forum, been lurking for a while. Something happened at the national this year that has impressed upon me some rather negative feelings. I learned that riders were being turned away at the gates in the days prior to the actual rally start. The volunteers were the only ones allowed in, and others were told to drive 40 miles away to another campground. One gentleman even asked me to set up his tent for him, and then he planned to sleep in his riding clothes and motorcycle cover at the other campground. That was probably what set me off. Now comes my rant: we already had the grounds rented, why couldn't these people be let in?? Its not like there was another function going on!!! The answer I got was that the grounds weren't ready. So what!?! Tell the people coming in that its camping at your own risk, or that they may be asked to volunteer for something. As a paying member of the MOA, they had just as much right to be on the grounds as I did.
In the future, I hope that the rallies are open gate. Post a list of all the extra openings for volunteers so that riders can sign up as they come in. Post large signs that let people know that the facilities aren't available yet or that they maybe be asked to move their tent location. I know moving a tent 100 ft is a lot easier than 40 miles.

Rant complete.

:stick <-----yeah, thats me poking the sleeping bear

[wuli959]

If you're going to poke at something . . . at least have some secure footing to do it from.



In all of the promotional items, it was made very clear when the rally site would be open for camping and an alternate site was made available. Should not have been a surprise to anyone unless there was an issue with reading comprehension. :D

I'm pretty sure that $$ items such as event insurance were tied to the dates.

[chasman]

The grounds are contracted from Sunday through Sunday. A small group of 4-5 volunteers arrive on the first Sunday. Each day until the rally opens on Thursday AM additional volunteers arrive as needed. Clean-up volunteers close-up the site on the second Sunday. Our insurance is in effect Sunday through Sunday.


Chuck Manley
Director, BMW MOA
Chairman, Rally Site Search Team

[Rasbutan]

I understand that they may have said when the rally site was open. However, if you're driving by and see a bunch of bikes in and set up, wouldn't you ask as well? I know I would.

As to the $$, I would think that the insurance would've been in place from the get-go because there were activities being held before the rally even started, ie Camp Gears. But even still, for future events, thats why they'd post camp at your own risk.

My footing isn't as unsecure as you'd think ;)

[wuli959]

My footing isn't as unsecure as you'd think ;)

you're right; I withdrawal my comment. Chuck is supporting your complaint as the site is "owned and insured" for the entire week.

Why not open it up for the entire week?

No weak excuses allowed.

:lurk

[Rod Sheridan]

Your footing may be secure, but your logic isn't. When it says in all the published material, that the rally is open Thursday morning, that's exactly what is meant. Do you stand outside a store before it's open and complain because they follow the posted business hours?

If they wanted to be early, they could volunteer at the rally and even attend the volunteer social function Wednesday evening.

For everyone who wanted to arrive early, arrangements were made to camp elsewhere, and they all seemed to have a good time at Carmi.

Regards, Rod.

[Rasbutan]

Your footing may be secure, but your logic isn't. When it says in all the published material, that the rally is open Thursday morning, that's exactly what is meant. Do you stand outside a store before it's open and complain because they follow the posted business hours?

If they wanted to be early, they could volunteer at the rally and even attend the volunteer social function Wednesday evening.

For everyone who wanted to arrive early, arrangements were made to camp elsewhere, and they all seemed to have a good time at Carmi.

Regards, Rod.

I realize that I may be arguing semantics, but one could misunderstand and believe that the rally(vendors, food, showers) opens Thursday while the grounds are open earlier.
To use your simile, if the store said it opened at 11 am but there were already shoppers checking out at 10am, wouldn't you ask why you couldn't get in? Now you're told that they helped sweep the aisles, thats why they're allowed in. You might volunteer to help, but are turned away simply because you're not on some list.
I submit that the members should've had the choice to either stay without facilities and help out, or go to the other camp ground.

I know we can't change the past, but I'm hoping to make an impact for the future.

[soldemall]

I'll have to disagree with you as well. You paid for 'n' nights camping, and that's what you got.
At my first National, I arrived on the first day at 9:30am, expecting to find a good camping spot. The place was already packed and I wound up in the sun on gravel.
Hard as it is to swallow, our Sunday school teachers misled us - we're really, none of us, special.

[Beemeup]

I read all the pre-event materials and it was quite clear that no one other
than volunteers would be permitted on site until Thursday morning. This is not an unusual practice. I thought it was very nice that the BMWMOA made special arrangements and paid good money to give us beautiful and cheap early camping accomodations at Lake Carmi. I got in early camped at Carmi and moved the next day....breaking camp and riding 40 miles was not a big deal.

My assumption was that the organizers who have been empowered by BMWMOA to run this event probably preferred to not have to deal with us until they were ready to deal with us. My thinking is that they wanted to be fully staffed and fully prepared so that they could do the best job possible. I'd be willing to bet that "camping at your own risk" involved signing a release, probably like the one we signed at registration or the insurance wouldn't cover them. Rather than put your energy into complaining and defending your complaints, why put your energy into a plan for Wisconsin and offering to help them implement it?

[snoone]

I'll have to disagree with you as well. You paid for 'n' nights camping, and that's what you got.
At my first National, I arrived on the first day at 9:30am, expecting to find a good camping spot. The place was already packed and I wound up in the sun on gravel.
Hard as it is to swallow, our Sunday school teachers misled us - we're really, none of us, special.

Obviously you didn't scout around. We got there thurs at 6pm and found a very nice wooded shaded spot after about 10 minutes of looking with great neighbors . And had The GREATEST time.

[allanruprecht]

Either play by the rules....or STAY HOME next year. EVERYONE else followed the instructions and had a GREAT TIME. If THAT is the "worst probelm" which you experienced, then you really didn't have much of a problem.
Be sure to READ all of the advanced instructions next year. QUIT BLUBBERING !!!

[Rasbutan]

I read all the pre-event materials and it was quite clear that no one other
than volunteers would be permitted on site until Thursday morning. This is not an unusual practice. I thought it was very nice that the BMWMOA made special arrangements and paid good money to give us beautiful and cheap early camping accomodations at Lake Carmi. I got in early camped at Carmi and moved the next day....breaking camp and riding 40 miles was not a big deal.

My assumption was that the organizers who have been empowered by BMWMOA to run this event probably preferred to not have to deal with us until they were ready to deal with us. My thinking is that they wanted to be fully staffed and fully prepared so that they could do the best job possible. I'd be willing to bet that "camping at your own risk" involved signing a release, probably like the one we signed at registration or the insurance wouldn't cover them. Rather than put your energy into complaining and defending your complaints, why put your energy into a plan for Wisconsin and offering to help them implement it?

A couple of rebuttal points:
1) breaking camp may not have been a big deal for you, but it would've been for me,
2) I wonder if the good money the club paid was more than the effort it would have taken to open the gates early, i.e. a waiver to sign (paper is cheap),
3) I wasn't complaining, I was ranting, ;)
4) I'll be putting a whole lot of energy into next years rally(whether I want to or not), I'm sure.

Please keep in mind that I'm simply trying to evoke a change to this none-too-unusual practice. IMO, riders should be able to camp on the rally grounds before the rally starts.

[Beemeup]

Organizers: Please make sure this guy gets some cheese to
go with his whine!

[Sue]

The NO-EARLY ADMISSION policy in Vermont caused some angst among members who arrived on Wednesday, only to learn that if they weren't on "the list," they could not enter until the Opening Bell at 8 AM on Thursday. This was a decision that was made by the Vermont Rally Chairmen.

Unfortunately, the volunteers were given inaccurate reasons for this policy, and these were heard repeatedly during the rally: 1) "Insurance" and 2) "...because of problems in Lima in 2005 with all of the early arrivals."

Both of these are absolutely untrue. Here are the facts:

1) Insurance: The BMW MOA has a substantial insurance policy that takes effect as soon as we begin set-up and lasts throughout our final wrap-up is complete. It does not fluctuate during the week.
2) There was not a single problem at the 2005 rally due to opening the gates early. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

If national rally chairmen make a determination to keep the gates locked except for the early set-up volunteers, their reasoning should be clearly stated and truthful.

For What It's Worth: We have run two national rallies and are planning a third, and have not had a problem allowing the members in early.

Sue Rihn-Manke 43753 & Brian Manke, 16751
Ambassadors & former Director, BMW MOA Board
2000 Rally Chairs - Midland, MI
2005 Rally Chairs - Lima, OH
2007 Rally Chairs - West Bend, WI (Gates open on Wednesday)

[Beemeup]

Problem solved. My apologies to anyone I offended.

[chasman]

wuli959 - I wasn't supporting Rasbutan's complaint, however, I was trying to clearify the length of time we lease a rally site and that we carry insurance through the entire lease. I was also pointing out that the number of volunteers on-site increases the closer we get to the Thursday AM opening.

My wife and I arrived at the site on Tuesday AM (for both Lima and Essex Junction rallies) to assist with pre-rally set-up. Several observations...

1) This year it was easier getting around the site on the golf cart and mini van with fewer early arrivals on-site. Depending on what duties you are assisting a lot of stuff has to be moved around and extra people in the way slow things down.

2) All the showers and bathrooms are not operational before Wed afternoon.

3) No security was needed at the vendor buildings this year. Last year we had to have people checking wristbands of those wishing to enter the vendor building because early arrivals would not leave the vendors alone. Having worked as a vendor at similar events I can tell you it's a pain in the a$$ to have people bother you as you're trying to get your booth set up.

4) When an early arrival sets their tent in an area that will be used for something else odds are they won't be there when it has to be moved. So when it gets moved, they get upset.

5) An advantage to extra early arrivals is that you can recruit extra volunteers as needed.


The Board of Directors have already began discussions regarding an early arrival gate policy for future International Rallies. Will there be a policy established? Can't answer that at this time. We know a lot of folks did not like this year's early arrival policy. But, we also know a lot of people did like the fact that when they arrived on Thursday there weren't several thousand folks already there.


Chuck Manley
Direstor, BMW MOA
Chairman, Rally Site Search Team

[Catman]

The BMWMOA generously made arrangements at Lake Carmi for those folks who wished to arrive in Vermont prior to the rally. Lake Carmi was a beautiful site, and I can assure you that no one on a BMW was turned away from there. I can't see how anyone could have realistically expected to get into the rally site pror to Thursday, particularly when the deal at Carmi was made specifically for this purpose.

The people who really should be ranting are the members of the non-BMW community who couldn't camp at Lake Carmi early in the week because the whole campground was reserved for a bunch of BMW riders, most of whom never showed up anyway.

Lastly, could we stop making such a big deal about the 40 mile ride between Lake Carmi and the rally site? People rode from all over the country for this event, and suddenly no one is up for a 40 mile scenic hop on their Beemer. It's not like you had to ride through downtown Manhattan in order to get from one site to the other. :dunno

[mike cousino]

I can see both sides.

From what I was told. At past MOA rallies the policy has been that, only volunteers are allowed on the grounds before Thursday. This prompted a lot of people to volunteer only to not show up for their appointed tasks. Most of those it seemed, were there to stake out a prime camping spot for them and their friends.

So, I guess it should be up to the rally chair(s) to set their policy and make it VERY CLEAR to everyone early on. Either way they can't win!

[Friedle]

Here's another way to look at the situation.

Every year the MOA basically builds a small town to be occupied by it's members for a set period of time, usually Thursday thru Sunday, we refer to as our International Rally.

This town is NOT a pre fab unit we can just roll on-site and plug in. It is more like a custom stick built house with many items unique to the site and many more "field modifications" that only make themselves apparent as the construction proceeds.

This year we had a defined and dedicated core group of workers whose responsibility was primarily to get the facility ready for the rest of the MOA family to occupy on the "opening day" of the event. We referred to these people as our "pre rally set up crew". They all volunteered early in the planning stages to help get the event ready for the rest of the participants.

This core group was able to construct the temporary town in a efficient and unfettered manner so that things like signage, tents, vendor operations, staging, Mobile Tradition display, demo facilities, communications, food vendors and many other components of a successful event were ready to go when the doors officially opened on Thursday.

On that same analogy, I think you would be very hard pressed to find a home builder who would be willing to permit the family to move in before the construction was finished or before the certificate of occupancy was issued.

Did all the details of the early admission lists work out correctly this time? No, there were some errors and omissions to the lists. Does that mean it was a bad idea? Certainly not! It just means the idea can be further refined to work a little better in the future.

Were there any real benefits to ariving early, other than the satisfaction of helping to build the temporary town the rest of the MOA family could enjoy when they arrived on opening day? Yes, you got fed on Tuesday night and got to hear a band on Wdnesday night in the beer garden. Did you get to select a prime camping spot because you got therre early? NO! The 06 Rally organizers went to great lengths to make sure that the prime camping locations were OFF LIMITS to the early arrivals until Thursday 0800. Did this suprise some of the early arrivals? Yes, some of them. Did they comply with the request and understand the reasoning? 99% of them did. Was there still plenty of prime real estate left when the gates officially opened at 0800 on Thursday. You bet there was!

The point being that ALL rally attendees should be treated as equals and entitled to equal shots at prime locations, whether you arrived to help set up on Sunday prior to the Thursday opening, as I did, or arrived on Thursday at 0800 opening. We do need set up help prior to the opening of the Rally, but we also need to balance that need with the prospect of too many people on site restricting the efficiency of the set up effort.

Finding a happy balance between too restrictive a policy and an open admission policy will be something the BMW MOA Board of Directors will be discussing in the future.

Michael Friedle
BMW MOA Ambassador
BMW MOA Board of Directors
BMW MOA International Rally Co-Chair 99, 03, 06

VERMONT. It's Still Not Flat

[85801]

Are the people who what the site opened early, ready to volenteer to go from tent to tent and find out if people are regestered, or are they requesting registration be set up early...more work? Cut em some slack jack, they did the best they could.

[Friedle]

"Oh, I forgot to complain, the frogs were noisy !"

Oh great, now you've done it! We don't have enough trouble already so you have to go and insult every French Canadian who attended the Rally. :D

I greatly appreciated the fantastic attendance and effort our Northern neighbors made to come to the Vermont Rally. ALL nasty replies are to be pm'ed directly to Statdawg, not to me!!! :stick

Friedle :wave

[PAULBACH]

RTFM

That was the admonition we got before we complained to the first class or God forbid, the Chief.

Read The Fine Manual. :brow

All the information about early entry, camping and anything about the rally site right down to an overhead view of the site. was in ON and on the forum months in advance.
:clap

There has been suficient whinning here to open a Bodega larger than anything ever seen in Spain.

[pastorpassum]

"If they wanted to be early, they could volunteer at the rally and even attend the volunteer social function Wednesday evening."

Not so! My riding partner and I did volunteer. Thinking I might need proof I (we) brought copies of the e-mail correspondence with the volunteer coordinator...just in case. Upon arriving at the gate Wednesday at 7:30pm we were told our names were not on the "list" and we could go 30 or so miles away and pitch a tent in the dark for 1 night! No amount of reasoning made any difference. The local on the gate (not a club member or volunteer, rather a paid local bragged about turning away 'hundreds' of volunteers that evening. It's always been a policy to let volunteers in early but I guess times change. An hour later, in the dark, in deer country, we finally found a motel room. So...that little $80.00 lesson and an arrogant paid goon on the gate will assure that I'll never volunteer again. Other than that I totally enjoyed the rally and look forward to next year.

Jim

[pastorpassum]

The NO-EARLY ADMISSION policy in Vermont caused some angst among members who arrived on Wednesday, only to learn that if they weren't on "the list," they could not enter until the Opening Bell at 8 AM on Thursday. This was a decision that was made by the Vermont Rally Chairmen.

Unfortunately, the volunteers were given inaccurate reasons for this policy, and these were heard repeatedly during the rally: 1) "Insurance" and 2) "...because of problems in Lima in 2005 with all of the early arrivals."

Both of these are absolutely untrue. Here are the facts:

1) Insurance: The BMW MOA has a substantial insurance policy that takes effect as soon as we begin set-up and lasts throughout our final wrap-up is complete. It does not fluctuate during the week.
2) There was not a single problem at the 2005 rally due to opening the gates early. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

If national rally chairmen make a determination to keep the gates locked except for the early set-up volunteers, their reasoning should be clearly stated and truthful.

For What It's Worth: We have run two national rallies and are planning a third, and have not had a problem allowing the members in early.

Sue Rihn-Manke 43753 & Brian Manke, 16751
Ambassadors & former Director, BMW MOA Board
2000 Rally Chairs - Midland, MI
2005 Rally Chairs - Lima, OH
2007 Rally Chairs - West Bend, WI (Gates open on Wednesday)



Sue, perhaps you should make your volunteer co-chairs aware of these facts. As I stated earlier I volunteered in advance and was expecting to get in Wed. evening but was turned away even though I had copies of e-mail correspondence with Fred Burgess, Volunteer Co-Chair stating I had indeed volunteered. Opon returning home from the rally I e-mailed Fred Burgess and told him of my dissatisfaction with being turned away Wed. night. His responce was that only certain volunteers essential to Thursdays opening were allowed in early and stated ...

Again, early admissions slots were limited to essential volunteers and support. This was all precipitated by the "business as usual" policy in Lima, OH last year - where 3,500+ guests were on-site 48 hours before the rally opened. It made it extremely difficult for setup crews and vendors to get going.

Your statement ...
2) There was not a single problem at the 2005 rally due to opening the gates early. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

makes me think Mr Burgess either doesn't know what he's talking about or is just trying to cover his own mistake by not placing my name on the list.

Anyway, it cost me a few bucks for a motel room and it cost the MOA my volunteer services in the future. It was a great rally IMHO as was Rhinebeck which I believe you also chaired. I look forward to Wisconsin next year and I wish future MOA Rallies all the best. Volunteers are the backbone of these rallies and if indeed hundreds of volunteers expecting to get in Wed night were turned away as the fellow on the gate bragged to me...you may find it more difficult to get those volunteers in the future.

Jim :banghead

[Sue]

Sue, perhaps you should make your volunteer co-chairs aware of these facts. .........

Again, early admissions slots were limited to essential volunteers and support. This was all precipitated by the "business as usual" policy in Lima, OH last year - where 3,500+ guests were on-site 48 hours before the rally opened. It made it extremely difficult for setup crews and vendors to get going.

Your statement ...
2) There was not a single problem at the 2005 rally due to opening the gates early. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

makes me think Mr Burgess either doesn't know what he's talking about ....

Jim - Imagine my surprise when I heard this repeated, over and over, in Vermont. But it wasn't true. A great many people, including Mr Burgess, were misinformed.

I hope you reconsider volunteering in the future. The national rallies are run by the volunteers and each and every one of us is important to the success of the rally.

The board of directors will probably start dictating a policy for the future, to avoid misunderstandings in the future.

Regarding 07, if the board allows --- my plan is:

Sunday: Only Committee Chairs & Board members on site
Monday: Add Vendors, Ambassadors, and immediate "Right-Hand-Man" volunteers to begin the intensive early set-up routine. The committee chairs will be the primary contacts for who they consider their right-hand-men.
Tuesday: Add all early set-up volunteers (folks who will work on Tuesday and Wednesday)
Wednesday: Add all remaining volunteers for the rally may enter on this date

sigh

This is contingent on your board of directors.

[The_Veg]

FWIW Sue, I like that plan. And regardless of what day I arrive, I'm looking forward to volunteering. :thumb

[BradfordBenn]

My $0.02

I agree with the plan of keeping the doors closed until the appropriatte time. My personal opinion is that many people would show up early and volunteer for something to be able to get in, then at their appointed shift not actually be there. So this left other people holding the bag.

I think that a plan of having "pre-registered" volunteers on site with the list being provided by the committee chair is the appropriatte middle of the road.

Also something to consider giving how much discussion there is of facilities (S&S) by limiting access to the site until the site is ready, it also includes not having facilities on site and having to pay for them until all the people show up.

[Norwood]

[QUOTE=Sue Rihn-Manke]
Unfortunately, the volunteers were given inaccurate reasons for this policy, and these were heard repeatedly during the rally: 1) "Insurance" and 2) "...because of problems in Lima in 2005 with all of the early arrivals."
QUOTE]

I was told that also..

Now I had an RV space rented and paid for...separate from the MOA reg fees. the RV campground was run as an separate enity..paid directly to the Expo center...not MOA... I was a volunteer, but my name was not on the list with security at the main gate...therefore I could not enter to my paid in advance RV camping space...

I was told the insurance and problems story as well...... I was also told that the volunteer arm bands where all used up and they couldn't let me in til Thursday... The operator of the RV park (Mike) had my space waiting for me...but I couldn't get past security...

I didn't need on the MOA campgrounds or venue area...just to my paid RV camping space...

I used Plan B...still volunteered, did my times in two areas, enjoyed the rally, my second one...

Did attend a seminar on Brazil travels...no one showed to present...

[stan]

I am a fairly new member and rally in VT was my first. When I attended I made my observations more like a customer would. It was outstanding! I also own a business, so I constantly have to deal with the public. This also affected my observations.
I am not a Camper so this whole thing did not affect me directly. As a customer I thought it unsusual that campers coud not arrive at least ONE day early. Certainly they would be restricted to the camping area and would not be allowed to wander the grounds until opening.
When I arrived around 10 AM friday I noticed how full the camping area already was. I couldn't believe so many attendees timed their intital arrival for 8am regardless where they were coming from. If they were camping 40 miles away they must have broken down camp very early to comply with the timing. I made all these observations on site as a noncamping customer of the rally. This has led me to follow this thread.
Having read the response of directors and volunteers I now understand the reasoning and it is very logical. I have also served as a boardmember and volunteer for an association and have had very active roles in putting on conferences (rallies). I am well aware there will always be complainers no matter what you do, but you always need to learn and improve as you go along.
Sounds like the directors are doing just that. I look forward to my second rally. I wish you well in your continued fine tuning of this fabulous event. I want to thank everyone who volunteers and spends their valuable time to provide these rallies. http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=142091#
clap

[osaiyid]

Either play by the rules....or STAY HOME next year. EVERYONE else followed the instructions and had a GREAT TIME. If THAT is the "worst probelm" which you experienced, then you really didn't have much of a problem.
Be sure to READ all of the advanced instructions next year. QUIT BLUBBERING !!!

Seems like everybody keeps throwing 'rules' forward as the reason for not allowing the site to be open to camp in the large fields that lay waiting till Thursday. The way I read the posts, some folks are wondering why were these rules made that way. Could the rules have been different .. more accomodating .. so to speak? It's a polite question ... the campers could have come in earlier rather than go some place some 20 miles away. And it's a valid question. Anyone know the answer? And please, do not quote the rule again ... we read the rules.

I was fortunate these restrictions did not affect me, I live locally.

[jdmetzger]

Everything printed said it opened Thursday. I'm not sure how you can expect to be let in early when you show up, or expect to be able to volunteer on the spot. What a lot of mayhem that would be, where there are 2000 "volunteers".

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading for Wisconsin, to get my campsite set up. I'll see all of you in July. As you need to be a volunteer to get in early, I will volunteer for snow shoveling duty for January. Hope to see all of you there!!! :nyah

[Rob Nye]

I'm new to this forum, been lurking for a while. Something happened at the national this year that has impressed upon me some rather negative feelings. I learned that riders were being turned away at the gates in the days prior to the actual rally start. The volunteers were the only ones allowed in, and others were told to drive 40 miles away to another campground. One gentleman even asked me to set up his tent for him, and then he planned to sleep in his riding clothes and motorcycle cover at the other campground. That was probably what set me off. Now comes my rant: we already had the grounds rented, why couldn't these people be let in?? Its not like there was another function going on!!! The answer I got was that the grounds weren't ready. So what!?! Tell the people coming in that its camping at your own risk, or that they may be asked to volunteer for something. As a paying member of the MOA, they had just as much right to be on the grounds as I did.
In the future, I hope that the rallies are open gate. Post a list of all the extra openings for volunteers so that riders can sign up as they come in. Post large signs that let people know that the facilities aren't available yet or that they maybe be asked to move their tent location. I know moving a tent 100 ft is a lot easier than 40 miles.

Rant complete.

:stick <-----yeah, thats me poking the sleeping bear



Good morning Chris,

Interesting rant. As the son of a former board member and three time rally chair I am sure you have plenty of insight to how it works, your recent registration here not withstanding.

Have you ever asked someone to move their tent after they have set up? It is never pleasant for anyone, the person being asked to move or the person making the request.

Here is an example. In Vermont we worked very hard to promote the idea that the set up volunteers were hosts and the people coming to the rally were our guests. As hosts we agreed to leave the very best camping spots open until Thursday morning which is when the rally started. I can’t thank our set up team enough for putting our guests first, it set a fantastic tone for what ultimately was one of our best events yet.

Before the rally started a couple set up their tent in an area that was not open for camping. I met with them and before I even got started the lady of the group stated "there is no way we are going to move". Apparently they had already been told by people already set up that they were setting up in a no camping area. I then explained to them how as volunteers we are looking at ourselves as hosts of the event and if you notice none of the other hosts are camping here, in fact some of your peers told you that this area was closed when you started setting up. What makes you better than the people over there who by the way are not here now because they are working? Her partner took over at this point.

His answer:

"I am not a volunteer, I am an Ambassador"

People like this are arriving early for one thing and one thing only, themselves. The event has not started but they need to be there first to score a better spot, steal a picnic table or otherwise make the rally better for themselves. They don’t give a **** about you, me, the rally or anyone else but themselves.

By allowing a few thousand extra people to start early you are putting themselves and volunteers in a position of having to say or hear no all the time. No, even though you are ready to browse the vendors are not ready to sell so no you can't come in. Even though you have set up you tent, no you can not camp here so you must move. No you can't leave your bike there because... No there is no free coffee yet because the rally has not started and they are not ready.

The by-product is unhappy campers and cranky volunteers before the event has even started!

We figured the best way to handle this was to say no once, i.e. I am sorry we are not ready to welcome you yet so please come back when we are ready. No the rally is not open yet, it opens on Thursday morning. We used private professionals and a few volunteers so that it would not be members telling other members no.

I realize that I may be arguing semantics, but one could misunderstand and believe that the rally(vendors, food, showers) opens Thursday while the grounds are open earlier.
To use your simile, if the store said it opened at 11 am but there were already shoppers checking out at 10am, wouldn't you ask why you couldn't get in? Now you're told that they helped sweep the aisles, thats why they're allowed in. You might volunteer to help, but are turned away simply because you're not on some list.
I submit that the members should've had the choice to either stay without facilities and help out, or go to the other camp ground.


Expanding on your analogy let me ask you this.

You are told that the store opens for a special event on Thursday morning at 8. You read this in a magazine, in advertisements and on the store's website. You decide you want to be an "early bird" so you arrive at 6am on Thursday morning hoping to be near the head of the line only to see that not only have the people "in the know” been there for days but all the best items are long gone. In our scenario the people who where there early to "sweep the isles" were asked not to do any advance "shopping" so all the good stuff was there for everyone to have an equal shot at when the store opened. Our early arrivals were told that while certain areas were closed today come Thursday every patch of grass (with the exception of the Mall) would be open and they could re-locate. I don’t think anyone did.

Your shopping analogy is much more applicable to Lima where there were well over a thousand “shoppers in store” two days before the start of the rally.

Which is fair, letting people come on in to "volunteer to sweep" even though you have plenty of help and then letting all these volunteers pick the isles clean or limiting the sweepers to only those who are there for the benefit of everyone?

One should expect that each year we try to improve upon the success of the previous event. Lima was a great rally and a great time for the 3,500 or so people who came early. Those members and guests who arrived when they were told the rally started found all the best camping full and just about 50% of the total crowd on site and having fun. Not the best way to welcome a first time visitor to our party is it? Like, sure I invited you to a party today but I invited all the "people in the know" to come early. Go ahead and set up where you can find a spot. Your mother stated that as rally chair there were absolutely no problems with the early crowd, I suppose it hinges on what your definition of a problem is.

For example, a member of the board, Chuck Manley casually mentioned that as a result of all the people on site during set up they had to put security at the vendor buildings to keep people out while the vendors were still trying to move in.

Now if I am a vendor I would be pretty unhappy that I need to request security so I can set up my booth. I would be unhappy because with all the people around with no investment in the event except as an early arrival, I can not leave any merchandise unsecured. Many of our vendors sell very expensive, small items which can not be left unattended in an open setting. I would also be somewhat unhappy that with all the people around I am not ready to sell now, I would feel like I should have been ready yesterday.

Let's also look at this from the perspective of the security volunteers. It is now two days before the rally starts and the chair needs to find at least one volunteer for every door to the vendor spaces to be there as long as the door is unlocked (eight hours), RIGHT NOW because the vendors and screaming. IIRC in Lima there were three buildings with two doors each, that is six people. Figure three hour shifts (kinda long for volunteers to stand at a door, btw) and suddenly you need a staff of at least 18 people to work on a schedule two days before the rally starts. This is not such a big deal if the security chairs know well in advance that this will be a requirement, but for a rally chair for whom this is "no problem" it can have a negative effect on morale for the people who actually have to scramble to meet the latest crisis.

To me these are problems that directly effect people’s chance to have fun on vacation.

One reason why things went so well with the facility in Vermont is that the Director of Operations of the CVE (Vermont facility) spent a few days in Lima. This is a guy who has over 20 years experience in managing large facilities and he really knows his stuff. He observed issues with sanitation, trash collection and other details that the Lima site staff got behind on before the rally even started, all because of the unanticipated number of early arrivals. No problem.

I am not sure where the story about insurance came from; this is likely from a flustered volunteer trying to explain to a screamer why they can not come in. I have not seen the binder however the contract for the facility was very clear on when we took control of the grounds. It also stated clearly when the event started (Thursday) and that there would be set up volunteers on site starting Monday. I will check the binder but I am pretty sure it also defines “set up” and “event” days also.

Some rally chairs may play semantics here and call 3500 people "volunteers" however we decided to be straight up with the good folks at the CVE, it makes it much easier to keep things humming when everyone is on the same page and we need to adjust on the fly as the event is in progress. As an aside when we got to the University of Charleston a few years ago to get started there was already a tent on the grass. The grounds crew was standing around wondering how they were going to mow; the owner of the tent (MOA Ambassador) was out for a ride. He had arrived Sunday, told campus security that he was one of the organizers of the event and a poobah in the MOA then got up Monday morning and went for a nice day ride. I got to spend the first 30 minutes on site working with the rally co-chair to assuage the anger of the facilities manager of the University. This is not the best foot to start with.

I take issue with this because it tells everyone that if they simply say the magic word (Volunteer) they can come anytime. In effect we are encouraging people who seek an advantage to "play the system" by lying about why they are on-site. This is a terrible disservice to the people who are giving us a week of their vacation to bust their butts on our behalf.

Because of our proximity to major metro areas we felt that we could have a big event however we never guessed we would have over 9,000 in attendance. We really wanted to extend a warm welcome to New England and in order to accommodate people who wanted to spend more than three days in Vermont we made a deal with the state to have exclusive use of one of the best campgrounds. We publicized this on the web and in the Owners News; the folks who took advantage had a fantastic time for a total of $5 per night. There was no way we were going to be able to accomplish all our setup goals if we had 3,500 early arrivals underfoot and we wanted to provide an alternative with superior camping which we did.

We were prepared for the people who are better than the rest of us, the ones who don’t think that rally policies, signs and such don’t apply to them because they are special. From Monday until the rally started approximately 700 people were turned away. The vast majority of these people accepted that the site was not ready and they either went on to Carmi or found alternate accommodation. They were treated with professional courtesy however at times there were 30 to 50 people all trying to crash the gate which causes stress on everybody. Why were they there? To beat someone to the “best” spot. Some screamed, threatened or in once case spit at member of our gate staff, but our approach was equal access for all and if you make exceptions here and there you may as well just open the gates. These are the same people who if the rally started Tuesday would be there on Sunday doing the exact same thing. No matter when the rally is advertised to start there will be these entitled people who want to show up early. If folks want a longer rally and the board will support it I am all for it, however it won’t resolve this issue.

Unfortunately there were some people who should have been on the early list who were not. There was some confusion with the registration volunteer list and to these people and the others who were legitimately excluded I sincerely apologize. I hope you understand that with close to 700 people trying every story imaginable short of physical violence we needed some sort of absolute and for the folks at the gate it was the paper in their hands. If we were doing this again or it was going to be established policy I would close the deadline for signing up as volunteer earlier and send them a volunteer wrist band in advance. No wristband, no entry, end of story.

To Jim (pastorpassum) I have read all your correspondence with the volunteer chair and I can understand your frustration, however you sent your first correspondence to the volunteer address just a few days before we headed north for set up and you never indicated that you wanted to camp early. In all fairness to our volunteer chair for all we knew you were someone from the area who wanted to simply volunteer as we were putting out calls on local club lists. You assumed that by signing up as a volunteer in advance that you would automatically be on the early arrival list, Fred assumed that because you didn’t ask you were local and I asked Fred to only give me a list of people on site early which we used not only for the gates but to plan food for Tuesday and Wednesday evenings. I am sorry that the process was not bulletproof and I sincerely hope that this negative experience will not sour you on helping out in the future.

To Chris (Rasbutan) there are two distinct groups in our organization, those who feel they are special and everyone else. Fortunately the special crowd is a tiny minority however they think that because of mileage, past services, genetics, “who they know” or that they are just better than the rest of us that they somehow deserve treatment that “just a member” doesn’t get. “Don’t you know who I am” is now a running joke in New England, we heard it too many times to count.

Your comments about footing give a pretty solid indication of which group you belong to. Here in New England that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at the Mickey D’s across the street.

[Hodag]

considering our average age is in the 50's...
why do alot of these threads sound like my kids crying over spilled milk?

maybe all some of you need is a diaper change and a nap?

[DarrylRi]

It simply blows my mind that people think they should get in early. All the materials said 8am Thursday, and early arrivers could camp nearby the whole week before that. Why is that so hard to understand?

If you're invited to a party, do you show up a couple hours early so you can drink up the best booze and eat the shrimp canapes before they're all gone?

Do you routinely cut in line at the movies and other places?

Sheesh. Show some common courtesy.

If they let people in early, that means they have to have registration set up early. That means more volunteers have to be present early, and more security has to be paid for early.

I rode across the country, from LA. I got to the rally Thursday evening. I got a nice camping spot -- on soft grass, in the afternoon shade -- not far from the vintage display (and the beer tent and the showers and the food vendors). The people there were welcoming and I got to meet a couple brothers from Kentucky, one of whom closed my tent up when the rain started and I was away. I had a great time, as I knew I would.

Honestly, the mentality of some people! Me, me, me!

Well, that's my rant.

[Bokrijder]

It simply blows my mind that people think they should get in early. All the materials said 8am Thursday, and early arrivers could camp nearby the whole week before that. Why is that so hard to understand?

If you're invited to a party, do you show up a couple hours early so you can drink up the best booze and eat the shrimp canapes before they're all gone?

Do you routinely cut in line at the movies and other places?

Sheesh. Show some common courtesy.


Honestly, the mentality of some people! Me, me, me!

Well, that's my rant.

+1 on your rant - Darryl


Motard

[Bokrijder]

Rob,

Thank you for the very complete and informative post.


Motard

[StevieWonder]

Sounds to me like some of our AMBASSADORS need some additional training in diplomacy .... :cry

Sheesh, you'd think if anybody knew better, they would. Oh yeah, I forgot ... it's all about ME. :fight

[HexST]

Thank you Rob,
Not only for your work at the Rally but your having to spend the next month explaining the proper actions the Rally Organizers took to make it fair for the majority of Rally-Goers.It was nice to be on the same foot as the "Privliged Folks".
Thanks to all the Volunteers also!!
I and my Wife had a great time.

[Motorad]

I went to my first national in Vt. this year and had a great time. I am very sure that one of the reasons I had a great time was that the volunteers did a great job, The rally chairs did a great job. The weather cooperated as long as it could for New England. I arrived on Thursday morning shortly after 0830 and promply got in the wrong line, This was quickly remedied by a helpful rally volunteer. I went through registration pretty quickly considering how many people were in line in front of me. The vintage display was great and the beer was cold. I spent a boatload of money on GS Bling Bling. The vendors probably are going to make me some kind of poster child.
Were there some gliches in the whole event, yeah, but in the grand scheme of things they were small gliches and as in Rob's post apoligized for, learned from, lets move on to the next Rally and see if we can top this one.
Because I think that is what it's all about "a good time had by all" "comradarie" and have the next one better than the last.

I still stand by my statement "I had a great time"

Thank you all who made it possibe for us to have a worry free weekend.

I am looking forward to next years rally,

James :usa

[Rob Nye]

Sounds to me like some of our AMBASSADORS need some additional training in diplomacy .... :cry

Sheesh, you'd think if anybody knew better, they would. Oh yeah, I forgot ... it's all about ME. :fight

Easy there big fella,

I went for a ride and was thinking about this...

The gentleman who said "I am not a volunteer I am an Ambassador" was never actually identified as an Ambassador. When I was done my Co Chair, Michael Friedle who is an Ambassador went to speak with them. He would not tell Mike his name and Mike did not recognize him. The Kiltmeister (Ambassador Liasion) didn't recognize him either.

Of course that rasies the issue of where this dude got the idea that all you have to say is "Ambassador".

The Ambassadors as a group are the most over the top, hard working and dedicated members of our club. At the rally they chaired the most critical committees, helped out new members and as always gave freely of themselves. Unfortunately in every group you have a few but in the Ambassadors the great folks outnumber the few by a huge margin.

Ambassadors always deserve a hearty thanks, they became Ambassadors because someone thought they were representative our our ideals. Even the guy who camped in Charleston had years of service to the organization however IMO, that didn't make his move right.

[StevieWonder]

Fair enough ... an imposter posing as an Ambassador.

How about issuing MOA picture ID cards to staff, Ambassadors, etc so that they CAN be identified? Also would serve as a nametag to those of us who don't recognize all concerned on sight?

As a former official in two car clubs, I went to great lengths to remove ANY semblance of favoritism or elitism. Being close to your post at the event or such is understandable and should be allowable, but staking claim based (falsely or otherwise) on position just isn't right. If they don't respond to a calm and reasonable request to relocate, they should simply be asked to leave.

Leading by example has become a lost art form.

[GregFeeler]

Fair enough ... an imposter posing as an Ambassador.


As a former official in two car clubs, I went to great lengths to remove ANY semblance of favoritism or elitism. Being close to your post at the event or such is understandable and should be allowable, but staking claim based (falsely or otherwise) on position just isn't right. If they don't respond to a calm and reasonable request to relocate, they should simply be asked to leave.

Leading by example has become a lost art form.

All,
The point of the early admission policy in Vermont was three fold: 1) to make sure that those on the grounds early were true volunteers, 2) to give them the best chance of getting the work done to setup the rallly, and 3) to give everyone else equal access to all the good camping.

Over that last years as our rally has grown so has the problem of people coming early. There is a lot of work to setting up a "movable feast" for up to 9,000 people. Too many folks just want to grab a good camp site and begin their personal good time. In so doing they make it harder for those trying to get things set up to do their job and that just increases the frustration level for all. We live or die by the number and quality of folks who will work on their vacation time so others can have a good rally experience. At some point you have to look at better ways to manage such a large and complicated undertaking.

This year's policy change was a good first attempt, and given that is was such a major change, I think that OVERALL it went very well. Could it be better? Yes. If it were done exactly the same way next year would it go better because more people would understand it? Very likely.

The Board is going to spend whatever time it takes to study the Vermont experience and come up with what seems like a good, fair, reasonable, and practicle admission policy. All our members have the right to expect consistent and fair treatment.

One of the great things about the 'MOA is that no volunteer gets anything more than a hat or t-shirt for their efforts. Even the Rally Chair(s) pay their full admission to the event they've spent a year and many hundreds of personal hours organizing. That egalitarian ethic has worked to keep the volunteer spirit very much alive in our organization. It seemed to this year's rally team that there had been some slippage in that sprit and they developed an approach to try to get things back on track. For that I congratulate them.

To those who had a bad experience due to this, I sincerly appoligize and say that the Board is going to do whatever they can to make it better for the next and subsequent years.

[dmr]

Greg has it exactly right- do it the same way each year from now on. Even the slow learners will catch on eventually. Every time a change is made someone will say "that's not how it was done last year!" The first time a change is made there are those who do not believe the literature. This was my first year as an MOA member and obviously my first international. I understood the information completely and camped less than 20 miles away Wednesday night. And selfishly, I would have loved to camp for a week for the $35 with free showers. Aren't the early birds simply looking for a bargain?

If the gates open on thursday, someone will want in on wednesday. If you open on wednesday, someone will want in tues. IMHO, hats off to the organizing committee for establishing a rational rule and then sticking to it. Changing it for next year will simply make more confusion.

[relic]

From all the rhetoric in this and other threads, I have seen a couple suggestions for the volunteer/early entry procedure that seem reasonable to me. I’m sorry I didn’t the save author names.

One deals with the early arrival list approved by the various chairmen. Some of you cyber techs (I have no skills here) could build a thread on this forum for posting a “read only” list of the approved early arrivals for each of the volunteer activities. Only a moderator or an Activity Chair could post/alter the list. We could all confirm our duty as volunteers and be assured that The Official List included us.

The second deals with volunteers having some method of showing their status as “early arrival authorized” to gate security. Publish a cut-off date for volunteering for “early arrival” tasks, and send out Early Volunteer armbands like (the Barneybands) we got this year. If not an armband, some other unique card/token etc.

Both of these suggestions involve effort by the Activity Chairmen and Staff but may lead to other workable solutions. These are not my ideas, but seem worthy of further thought.

[StevieWonder]

Volunteers should get some kind of token consideration for their time/effort to support the event. I have ZERO problem with them getting first shot at setting up. If somebody doesn't like it, then they can volunteer also. It's a SMALL token of appreciation for all those necessary to make the event work for everybody else.

However, having been a former volunteer or a former MOA ambassador or former MOA official should offer no special consideration for early or preferred entry and ... imposters should be shot or hung. :thumb

[GregFeeler]

However, having been a former volunteer or a former MOA ambassador or former MOA official should offer no special consideration for early or preferred entry and ... imposters should be shot or hung. :thumb


Well... make up your mind! Shot OR hung? :bolt

[Friedle]

Sounds to me like some of our AMBASSADORS need some additional training in diplomacy .... :cry

Sheesh, you'd think if anybody knew better, they would. Oh yeah, I forgot ... it's all about ME. :fight

As Rob has stated, the person claiming to be an Ambassador in Vermont was unknown to me, a few other Ambassadors or Kilty. He would not give me his name or speak further with me when I identified myself as an Ambassador and asked him if he thought he was doing the right thing, ie: acting in the manner of an Ambassador of the MOA.

In Charleston, the early arrival who claimed to be the head of the Rally (and it wasn't Josh or myself, both Ambassadors) and an Ambassador actually was an Ambassador who should have known better. As Rob related, it was not a good way to start off the Charleston Rally by spending time with the head of the College Facilities & Operations trying to smooth over a stupid incident three days before the opening of the Rally.

I think we have a start on what can be a fair and equitable arrangement balancing the need to set up the "town" for the main MOA population and identifying those "early arrival workers" who are the necessary advance team.
Let's spend some time as a BoD refining the techniques and system to make it workable and fair for the ENTIRE MOA family, not just the "ones with the inside connections".

Michael Friedle
BMW MOA Ambassador
BMW MOA Board of Directors
BMW MOA International Rally Co-Chair 99, 03, 06

Saving the Best part of Almost Heaven where It's Not Flat...
for ALL MOA members

[Rob Nye]

All,


This year's policy change was a good first attempt, and given that is was such a major change, I think that OVERALL it went very well. Could it be better? Yes. If it were done exactly the same way next year would it go better because more people would understand it? Very likely.


For the record the same policy was in place in Spokane and Rhinebeck. The difference in this case was some members of the board fighting tooth and nail against it.

Best,

Rob Nye

[dancogan]

[QUOTE=GregFeeler]All,


This year's policy change was a good first attempt, and given that is was such a major change, I think that OVERALL it went very well. Could it be better? Yes.
Rob Nye

Just to add to areas that need some further work for next year: RV's were allowed in the campsite a day early, on Wednesday. However, we were not allowed to register early. After setting up our motorhome, we took off for a ride with another couple, and were almost not permitted to return to the rally grounds because we did not have the registration wrist bands. The volunteer at the gate was abrasive, to put it mildly, and obviously was not informed that RVer's had been allowed in on Wednesday. ALL volunteers need to know that 1) their work is appreciated, and, 2) they are ambassadors for the rally.

[GregFeeler]

[QUOTE=GregFeeler]All,


This year's policy change was a good first attempt, and given that is was such a major change, I think that OVERALL it went very well. Could it be better? Yes. If it were done exactly the same way next year would it go better because more people would understand it? Very likely.
QUOTE]

For the record the same policy was in place in Spokane and Rhinebeck. The difference in this case was some members of the board fighting tooth and nail against it.

Best,

Rob Nye


Let me restate: The serious attempt to implement this policy was a good first attempt. Much rests on the methoid and folks will have concerns until they have a concrete example of how something is going to work. We now have that and can go forward to see what we can do with it.

[StevieWonder]

Well... make up your mind! Shot OR hung? :bolt

Shoot 'em and then hang 'em for all to see !!!

Signed,
Campsite Taliban :D

[GregFeeler]

Shoot 'em and then hang 'em for all to see !!!

Signed,
Campsite Taliban :D


Said like a true Texan! :stick

[StevieWonder]

As Rob has stated, the person claiming to be an Ambassador in Vermont was unknown to me, a few other Ambassadors or Kilty. He would not give me his name or speak further with me when I identified myself as an Ambassador and asked him if he thought he was doing the right thing, ie: acting in the manner of an Ambassador of the MOA.

In Charleston, the early arrival who claimed to be the head of the Rally (and it wasn't Josh or myself, both Ambassadors) and an Ambassador actually was an Ambassador who should have known better. As Rob related, it was not a good way to start off the Charleston Rally by spending time with the head of the College Facilities & Operations trying to smooth over a stupid incident three days before the opening of the Rally.

I think we have a start on what can be a fair and equitable arrangement balancing the need to set up the "town" for the main MOA population and identifying those "early arrival workers" who are the necessary advance team.
Let's spend some time as a BoD refining the techniques and system to make it workable and fair for the ENTIRE MOA family, not just the "ones with the inside connections".

Michael Friedle
BMW MOA Ambassador
BMW MOA Board of Directors
BMW MOA International Rally Co-Chair 99, 03, 06

Saving the Best part of Almost Heaven where It's Not Flat...
for ALL MOA members

Like I said ... volunteers deserve some perks. Without them the event just doesn't happen. I'm all for that.

I also acknowledged that the imposter was just that and does NOT, in fact, represent the Ambassadors. I thought the Ambassadors should know better than to be such asses, and obviously they do !!! :)

I don't think very many people have ever worked in such an environment. It's hard to organize employees or contractors, but it's even harder to do so with volunteers. This project literally involves building a small town and then taking it apart in under a week. That's a HUGE undertaking and while it will likely never go perfectly, the organizers, staff and volunteers deserve all the credit for the event being so well done.

If the guy at the gate was a grouch, it's likely because some earlier arrivals were not kind to him. You must realize, of course, that this guy is going to hear every story ever told. He might have been told about the RVer's and forgot, too. I doubt you'd be happy with him if he let everybody with a story in either. He's between a rock and hard place.

Anyway ... KUDOS to the event and all that made it happen. Hopefully I can participate next year.

[SheRidesABeemer]

Thanks to Rob and others for the lengthy thoughtful responses, it's a shame they won't be read (or comprehended) by the people who need it the most.

As a volunteer, I never considered that I was privileged to an early entry. It was my understanding that early entry was only for those who had jobs related to set up. I find it silly that that was interpreted by others to mean any volunteer gets in early.

I remember when I got to Spokane a day early...it's a little harder to plan arrival times 2,800 miles in advance. I was so worried that the hotel would not be able to take me a day early...thankfully they could. I certainly wouldn't have dreamed of making a fuss in the lobby demanding to be let in a day early just because I couldtn't plan my arrival right!

To bad there are people among us who can’t get it through their skulls that in some situations they are “nobody special” and need to get in line with the commoners.

[StevieWonder]

Thanks to Rob and others for the lengthy thoughtful responses, it's a shame they won't be read (or comprehended) by the people who need it the most.

As a volunteer, I never considered that I was privileged to an early entry. It was my understanding that early entry was only for those who had jobs related to set up. I find it silly that that was interpreted by others to mean any volunteer gets in early.

I remember when I got to Spokane a day early...it's a little harder to plan arrival times 2,800 miles in advance. I was so worried that the hotel would not be able to take me a day early...thankfully they could. I certainly wouldn't have dreamed of making a fuss in the lobby demanding to be let in a day early just because I couldtn't plan my arrival right!

To bad there are people among us who can’t get it through their skulls that in some situations they are “nobody special” and need to get in line with the commoners.


WELL stated, Gail. :thumb

[PAULBACH]

The beating will continue until morale improves

[Bokrijder]

I notice that the horse is not wearing an armband. Is this the incriminating photo of the situation at the gate on Wednesday???

Motard

[mike cousino]

Thanks Rob and Mike, for taking the time to explain the reasoning. :thumb

As part of the Hospitality Team, we had people e-mailing us to volunteer and insisting that they be on the early arrival list for Wednesday when their shift wasn't until Friday. When I replied that only essential personnel would be let in early, they "un-volunteered" themselves. We didn't have any problem replacing them. So, I guess some volunteer just so they can get in early. :dunno

[Rasbutan]

Good morning Chris,

Interesting rant. As the son of a former board member and three time rally chair I am sure you have plenty of insight to how it works, your recent registration here not withstanding.


Rob,

Believe it or not, I don't have plenty of insight. Hence the reason for my rant. I actually started to complain to the former board member, at which point she shut me down and told me to complain to the organizers. Of the reasons that I was given about people being turned away, I was told they were unfounded. Since these reasons were unfounded, I posted to this site in order to get clarification...some would call it whining.

After reading the reponses from yourself and others, I now understand why the gates were kept closed. Although I don't necessarily agree with them, your arguments make a lot of sense.

Thank you for taking the time to enlighten myself and others.

As to your last jibe about being special, you're right. I am special. I belong to the MOA. Every single person in this club is special, and deserves the utmost respect and fair treatment. I guess thats what started my rant in the first place.

[Rob Nye]

Rob,

Believe it or not, I don't have plenty of insight. Hence the reason for my rant. I actually started to complain to the former board member, at which point she shut me down and told me to complain to the organizers. Of the reasons that I was given about people being turned away, I was told they were unfounded. Since these reasons were unfounded, I posted to this site in order to get clarification...some would call it whining.

After reading the reponses from yourself and others, I now understand why the gates were kept closed. Although I don't necessarily agree with them, your arguments make a lot of sense.

Thank you for taking the time to enlighten myself and others.

As to your last jibe about being special, you're right. I am special. I belong to the MOA. Every single person in this club is special, and deserves the utmost respect and fair treatment. I guess thats what started my rant in the first place.

So lone as special also means equal I got a big Amen for ya. :thumb

[Sue]

As you can see, national rally chairmen have different opinions. That does not make one wrong and the other right. We need to learn from the previous years to build the best that we can with what we have available.

This year, the rally team decided to keep the gates closed to all but a few early set-up volunteers because of what they thought they saw as problems in 2005. As is the case at every large event, to the general rally attendee most issues were invisible and the rally was a hit.

Kudos to the Vermont Rally team for putting on a wonderful event. We promise you ANOTHER wonderful event in Wisconsin next year. It will be different in some ways and the same in others.

But hey you guys --- how about taking a pass on the attacks, okay? Man, this is making me tired!







:kiss

[kbasa]

Alrighty, then.

Emotions run high on national rallies for everybody. Participants are taking their vacation. Volunteers are working for the greater good of the organization. The board wants to make sure things go well and the membership has a good time. There are bound to be disagreements about methodology when there's so much at stake.

Having watched and helped with setup at a couple rallies, I can say that the setup period at Vermont was far more efficient than what I've seen in the past. This isn't a slam at anyone, just an observation. As an example, I was there when they were setting up the vintage bike display. The only folks in the building were the folks putting the bikes in their places and assembling the backdrops. There were vintage bikes parked all over the place and when one needed to get moved, there wasn't a need to move a bunch of folks out of the way, clear a path and all the other things that happen when there are 20 people watching four people work.

Likewise for the vendors. There weren't random folks milling around in the vendor area trying to find a good deal before the show opened, distracting the vendors that were trying to set up, getting in the way of people unloading their stock and displays and the like. I'm certain that this was refreshing for the vendors.

The rally opened at 8am on Thursday. Ample accomodations were provided for folks that wanted to get to VT early at a campsite that was both beautiful and reasonably close. Ample and obvious notice was provided in ON, the web site and here on the forum. I don't know what else could be done to let people know.

Keeping attendees out until the rally started doesn't strike me as a bad idea at all, in light of what I saw.

Admittedly, there were some bugs in getting names out to the people at the gate. We can improve on that as we refine the practice for collecting volunteer names and generating rosters. My apologies to those folks that had a rough time. We'll get better at it.

I would hope that we continue this practice for one important reason. Given the benefits the rally team saw while setting up, we need to begin to train the membership that the rally starts on Thursday and there will not be early arrivals. If we continue with this policy, this will be less of an issue next year and a complete non issue the year after.

The key to management is consistency. My personal feeling is that we need to remain consistent.

[StevieWonder]

GREAT post, Dave.

:clap :rocker

[DaveH]

My son, brother and I on our K75, K1100lt, and R1100RT respectively, left SE Pennsylvania on Monday, camped at Woodford SP, and went to the rally Tuesday morning (just to see if the postings about no early arrivals were true). We were told, very tactfully, by security at the main gate that since we were not on the early admission volunteer list, we could not enter until Thursday (which we already figured since it was well-publicised). No, problem. We called a state park north of Stowe (Smugglers something) and got a site. It gave us the chance to ride smuggler's notch. Camped there two nights, did some great riding, and went back to the rally on Thursday. Got in around noon, got acceptable campsites, and had a great time.

Thanks to all who did the planning and set-up. If the no early arrival policy helps those folks, then I think we all benefit.

Had an equally good time in Lima and at Spokane, with different policies, so, whatever works for the organizers works for me.

Dave Huston
113231

[miragemanvt]

I'm bemused and amused by all the incessant whining this forum is pulling out of contributors. To those who seem to be intent upon bellyaching about everything it would seem that reading lessons might be a better expenditure of time and energy rather than complaining about what was, over all, a great gathering of people who share a common linkage. If you had read information about the rally in advance you'd have known the gates weren't open. If you volunteered and were shut out through inadvertance, then so be it. Tough break. Suck it up, get with the spirit of what the event was all about and stop bitching. You sound like owners of BMW cars who can't do anything but complain about Chris Bangle's bastardization of the marque......read Roundel. Some of us actually enjoyed the rally, are deeply appreciative of all the work that was done to pull it together, enjoyed the Vermont countryside's beauty and didn't seek out things to grouse about. Great job. Fun time. Certainly an inducement to attend another in the future. If you didn't like it, stay the hell home next year. The rest of us don't need you spoiling our good times and diminishing the work we did to put the "show" on for you.

Incidentally, for those of you who can't do anything but complain about the camping accomomodations and the need to ride 40 miles, did you make an effort to seek out any of the other really fine campgrounds, private and state owned in the greater Burlington/Essex Jct area? Apparently not. Too bad for you 'cause you missed some fine accomodations.

[StevieWonder]

Mexican food in Vermont ??? I don't think so !!! :nyah

Would you go to Texas for maple syrup ??? :wave

[kbasa]

Mexican food in Vermont ??? I don't think so !!! :nyah

Would you go to Texas for maple syrup ??? :wave

Why would I go to Texas? :ha





:hide










my dad lives in brownsville and the inlaws are in Dallas.

[StevieWonder]

my dad lives in brownsville and the inlaws are in Dallas.

(I see you failed to inherit your dad's genes !!! :D)
<
<
<
<
Why would I go to Texas?
To make a reentry from Jerry Brown's trips to outer space ???

[JimMoore]

I am amazed that someone would go on a motorcycle trip, then attempt to camp for an extra day at the campground where they are going to be camping for three days anyway. I have always thought that the idea of a bike trip was to "travel" and "see new places," not "sit on my butt for four days in the same spot." Next year this policy should be in place: If someone shows up early to camp the gate volunteer should say, "Sorry. Based on that request, we've determined that you're an idiot. Here's your money back. Go away." In fact, I'll volunteer for that job if I can camp a day early.

Sincerely,

Jim Moore

[SheRidesABeemer]

I am amazed that someone would go on a motorcycle trip, then attempt to camp for an extra day at the campground where they are going to be camping for three days anyway. I have always thought that the idea of a bike trip was to "travel" and "see new places," not "sit on my butt for four days in the same spot." Next year this policy should be in place: If someone shows up early to camp the gate volunteer should say, "Sorry. Based on that request, we've determined that you're an idiot. Here's your money back. Go away." In fact, I'll volunteer for that job if I can camp a day early.

Sincerely,

Jim Moore

I think that anyone who shows up early should be given a print out of this thread and be forced to read it, and perhaps write an essay on how it applies to them. :D

[Paul_F]

This should be a non-issue. It was stated that the Burlington Campgrounds would not be available to us until the Thursday morning. Open and shut case. In my case, I rode as far as Montpelier, had supper and then went to White River Junction where I had reserved a room for the night. It was only about a 30 mile ride, but by my reasoning, I would not be in competition with the hordes in the Burlington area looking for a room or a camping spot for the night. I had no idea that club members would be trying to crash the campgrounds early. I have never been able to understand why some consider themselves to always be special cases or exceptions to the established rules.

Despite these complaints, it was a well hosted rally.

[Bokrijder]

I am amazed that someone would go on a motorcycle trip, then attempt to camp for an extra day at the campground where they are going to be camping for three days anyway. I have always thought that the idea of a bike trip was to "travel" and "see new places," not "sit on my butt for four days in the same spot." Next year this policy should be in place: If someone shows up early to camp the gate volunteer should say, "Sorry. Based on that request, we've determined that you're an idiot. Here's your money back. Go away." In fact, I'll volunteer for that job if I can camp a day early.

Sincerely,

Jim Moore

:laugh

Motard

[jmerlino]

I honestly can't believe that this is even an issue. Is there some way we could make a reading comprehension test a requirement for admission?

[Chacifer]

I think that anyone who shows up early should be given a print out of this thread and be forced to read it, and perhaps write an essay on how it applies to them. :D

Now that's EVIL! http://www.thetechlounge.com/forum/images/smilies/more_smilies/drevil1.gif(supposed to be Dr. Evil)

[username]

Why would I go to Texas? :ha





:hide










my dad lives in brownsville and the inlaws are in Dallas.

ahem.

[kbasa]

ahem.


austin is wierd enough for me. so is san antone

[beemerron]

austin is wierd enough for me. so is san antone

Lyle Lovett?

[GregFeeler]

Lyle Lovett?

Shiner Boch?

[StevieWonder]

NEVER ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, he'll tell you. And if he's not, well, you don't want to embarrass him.

[Callmethebreeze]

Yeah Stevie,
Anyone who believes that houston is the center of the universe clearly fits another texas expression "all hat...no cattle"
Breeze

[StevieWonder]

Jealousy is an easily recognized but untreatable condition. :dance

[Beemeup]

Kinky Friedman for Governor! :thumb

[dancogan]

NEVER ask a man where he's from. If he's from Texas, well, you don't want to embarrass him.

What's that you say? :stick :nyah

[username]

Kinky Friedman for Governor! :thumb

:nod

we were having gelato (http://www.caffeteo.com/) after dinner monday night, and ran into the libertarian candidate for governor. i forget his name, he was just there having gelato like everyone else. we all started ranting about how gov rick perry is an asshat, and how we feel guilty that our state made bush governor (twice. :bluduh ) and he came over and introduced himself. i think he was disappointed that we thought kinky was more mainstream than a libertarian guy.

[The_Veg]

Mexican food in Vermont ??? I don't think so !!!
Food isn't made by places, it's made by people. I love Indian and Thai but India and Thailand are not very convenient (and they're tricky to ride to).

Kinky Friedman for Governor!
I'm with you! I am a campaign volunteer for Kinky and I think he's got a better shot than most folks realise, given that he got a lot more ballot-petition signatures than the republican-running-as-independent candidate, and that the democrat candidate is an also-ran, and that Governor Perry seems to be pissing off everybody lately.

Here are some entertaining tidbits (http://www.kinkyfriedman.com/multimedia/av.html).

The Veg endorses Kinky:
http://vegomatic.smugmug.com/photos/59577425-M.jpg

[/hijack]

[StevieWonder]

Great ... next thing you'll parade out Jimmy Carter again as a viable "everyman's" candidate. :brow

[The_Veg]

Nah....I'd rather invite Jimmy over for a beer and shoot the breeze about stuff in general.

[StevieWonder]

Maybe you can ask him why he was THE circus clown as President, the nation's CEO that could NEVER make a decision, but now seems to have a holier-than-thou attitude concerning his successors with his constant outspoken criticism of everything from national to foreign policy. That ought to keep him entertained for half a day while you get some real insight elsewhere.

[beemerron]

Talk about circus clowns, we have one now that finds it easy to make decisions. Too bad they are all wrong decisions.

[StevieWonder]

No decision is a bad decision too. If you'll look back, the original major screw up in the Middle East was Jimmy's ineptitude in dealing with the Iranian revolution. He got the ball rolling for all the subsequent Presidents. He's the poster boy for ineptitude in foreign policy but now he preaches about how we ought to do it. If you can't do it, at least you can talk about it.

[username]

No decision is a bad decision too. If you'll look back, the original major screw up in the Middle East was Jimmy's ineptitude in dealing with the Iranian revolution. He got the ball rolling for all the subsequent Presidents. He's the poster boy for ineptitude in foreign policy but now he preaches about how we ought to do it. If you can't do it, at least you can talk about it.

i have yet to see an american president effectively "deal" with the iranian revolution. it isn't easy.

and yeah, jimmy carter was a failure. that's what theyre saying in israel and egypt, now that they no longer send their armies against each other.

:rolleyes

[jdmetzger]

But the big question is: What do the past and current presidents think about camping at the MOA rally in Vermont?? How about the Egyptians and Iranians? :stick

[Mika]

But the big question is: What do the past and current presidents think about camping at the MOA rally in Vermont?? How about the Egyptians and Iranians? :stick
President Ford:
Staff reported he is looking into the topic while he is dealing with his current health problems and will not be making a statement at this time.

President Carter:
Rosaline and I regret that we were not able to obtain the proper permits that would allow us to complete a Habitat Home in time for the rally. We are contacting the proper authorities in Wisconsin as you read this.

President George H. W. Bush:
I told those people when they left to read my lips – NO EARLY ADMISSION FOR CAMPING and did they listen? NO!

President Clinton:
I have been asked this question several times since the regrettable incident that has led us into the current debate. Hilary, Chelsea and I have discussed it at length and considering where we are in the election cycle we are all glad that this took place in VT and not NY.

President George W. Bush:
I have asked the Vice President to look into this serious issue and once he has had a chance to review it with the Secretaries of Defense, HUD and the head of Homeland Security he will be getting back to me to let me know what I think. Until that time we can only hope that this is not the result of another Al Qaeda plot and thus we will Stay the Corse.

Neither the Israelie or Egyptian embassies will make a comment at this time. Insiders report; however, that both nations are bracing for a dairy emergency if this problem expands to Wisconsin.

Film at 11. :drink

[tuber1]

As you can see, national rally chairmen have different opinions. That does not make one wrong and the other right. We need to learn from the previous years to build the best that we can with what we have available.

This year, the rally team decided to keep the gates closed to all but a few early set-up volunteers because of what they thought they saw as problems in 2005. As is the case at every large event, to the general rally attendee most issues were invisible and the rally was a hit.

Kudos to the Vermont Rally team for putting on a wonderful event. We promise you ANOTHER wonderful event in Wisconsin next year. It will be different in some ways and the same in others.

But hey you guys --- how about taking a pass on the attacks, okay? Man, this is making me tired!







:kiss



all of the years i went to a Nat'l ,and the times I volunteered, only early arrivals were set up ppl and volunteers. but someone always shows up early..in fact usually a 100 or so...

[DcnDog]

But now the town's peace is being shattered by thousands of BMW riders whose behaviour has become so bad that officials have brought in riot police. The decision to deploy officers from the notorious Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité (CRS) came after local gendarmes admitted that they were unable to cope with the nightly excesses of BMW enthusiast who, after going to the campground early, take to the town's bars and clubs.

"We are carrying out late- night patrols because of the threat to public order caused by increasing numbers of night-time drinkers," a spokesman for the CRS said.

"The local gendarmes cannot cope with all the trouble, and the situation has been getting out of hand. The BMW campers are particularly fond of their drink and have been some of the worst offenders. There have been numerous complaints about their behaviour, and it cannot be tolerated."

In Washington County's busy streets, there is plenty of evidence of alcohol-fuelled exuberance in the town's numerous bars and clubs.

At Bar Angelus, a few hundred yards from the rally site, bare-chested men, and women wearing skimpy tops and tatoos, swayed to the blaring music including Madonna's Like A Virgin and Sympathy for the Devil by the Rolling Stones.

"We come here to party after having rode all day," said Susan Clare, a 19-year-old student from south Wisconsin.

[The_Veg]

I'd like to shoot the breeze with Jimmy because he seems like an interesting person, which is more than I can say for most presidents.
Who cares if he didn't do anything macho or sexy while he was office? Our country was still here and still functioning without any major threatening issues when he left office. That is success in my book. Presidents should be stewards, not commandos. His work for the good of humanity since leaving office is I think his real achievement- but since he didn't do it while president (and has a real life after presidency) I guess that makes him a boring loser???
But just for the record, he didn't get us into any wars and he was the last one to really do anything to move us toward something that would eventually be called 'energy independence' (oops, forgot- them's dirty-words down here in TexSux where reducing oil consumption is for ninnies and wimps). Nice of his successor to slash the alternative-energy research budget, reduce the CAFE standards to the point of irrelevance, and gut the Clean Air Act.

[username]

I'd like to shoot the breeze with Jimmy because he seems like an interesting person, which is more than I can say for most presidents.
Who cares if he didn't do anything macho or sexy while he was office? Our country was still here and still functioning without any major threatening issues when he left office. That is success in my book. Presidents should be stewards, not commandos. His work for the good of humanity since leaving office is I think his real achievement- but since he didn't do it while president (and has a real life after presidency) I guess that makes him a boring loser???
But just for the record, he didn't get us into any wars and he was the last one to really do anything to move us toward something that would eventually be called 'energy independence' (oops, forgot- them's dirty-words down here in TexSux where reducing oil consumption is for ninnies and wimps). Nice of his successor to slash the alternative-energy research budget, reduce the CAFE standards to the point of irrelevance, and gut the Clean Air Act.

+1