What mistake(s) did these riders make?

[CTHalk]

Interesting footage of an actual road incident. What happened here? Click the link for 'Harley going off cliff'. Riding beyond ability? Panic? Beer?

http://www.twistedlimit.com/

[PacWestGS]

Yes, all three probably

I could understand the fear of the driver/passengers in the car, but they fled the scene of an accident, an accident they happened to catch on film.

I liked the other squidly crash on the site. I wonder how much sh*t that guy got from his GF? After dropping her on the road like that?

I don't know why people on Harley's ride the "Dragon" it just seams to me to be the wrong place for the wrong bike...? JMO

Doc

[jgr451]

Ohhhh the group road rash!!!

[wuli959]

I don't know why people on Harley's ride the "Dragon" it just seams to me to be the wrong place for the wrong bike...? JMO

Doc

Why?

It's a public road, with a 35 mph speed limit, that tractor trailer rigs use on occasion. . . why would it be the wrong place & why would a Harley be the wrong bike?

The rider passed on a double yellow, made it back into the his lane, hit the corner too fast, and nailed the rear brake. Off to the woods he goes. It about the rider . . . not about the bike.

[Belquar]

He definitely flew for a moment.

Some times you get what is coming when you hang it out like that. Hope he was alright.

I particularly like the part where the chicken in the motorhome says they better get going before they take a beating. Example of excellent citizenry. Jaggoffs.

[screwtop]

Only mistake I see is that the chick wasn't wearing a thong.

[kbasa]

Rider #1 went to pass a car without giving any thought to the corner he'd have to negotiate after getting past. When he did give it some thought, he panicked and failed to steer the vehicle.

Rider #2 let Rider #1 do his thinking, but managed to exercise a couple brain cells more than Rider #1 and was able to avoid going into the ditch.

Dopes. That should have been an easy maneuver.

[Mika]

I looked at it several times and to me it seems he came into the corner overcooked after passing the van. Too much rear brake locks up the rear end, skids loosing control for cornering before he ever had a chance to recover.

His plan was pass the van.
He did not plan for how to handle getting back in his lane and handling the next set of turns after the pass.

I don’t think it is a question of right or wrong bike, liqour or panic. Any bike could have ended up the same way. The only difference might be how far they flew before landing. He rides into the accident bolt upright. No knee into the turn, I don’t see any attempt to counter steer even before getting in trouble. The problem boils down to he was “driving” the motorcycle instead of “riding the bike” if you understand what I am saying.

Good argument for us to work on all of our riding skills and a spot on the forum to discuss this stuff.

[PacWestGS]

Why?
SNIP why would it be the wrong place & why would a Harley be the wrong bike? SNIP It about the rider . . . not about the bike.

OK, this is JMO but I've learned that everyone can have one and not everyone will agree with it, that's OK.

Would you take a "Drag" bike or "Cruiser" to a FIM-GP course, NO.

Would you take a "GP-Superbike" to a Motocross track, NO.

I could go on, but it would get boring.

Road Kings, and most other HD's and their Japanese 'Clones', (except the Sportster series), are Open Road bikes. Designed to go straight for long periods of comfort with gentle long sweepers for turns. They don't have the ground-clearence to negotiate tight turns and they have the steering geometry of a truck. I know, I have ridden them and found out first hand how well they don't turn sharply.

Why do I consider the "Dragon" to be the wrong road? Because it has 318 tight turns in 11-miles. There isn't a bar every 1/5 mile to stop at, and if you don't have the skills to negotiate this road in a safe and prudent manner, you crash over the edge.

Even a good "skilled" rider on the wrong bike can reach a point of no return. A less skilled rider on the perfect bike can reach the point of no return and crash in spectacular fashion. Can a really good rider do the "Dragon" on a "Road King" sure, can a not-so-good rider do the dragon on sport-bike, NO.

Trucks, ohh yeah, I just read the most interesting article on what truckers say about making the mistake of driving there. DON'T DO IT.

The Dragon (http://www.landlinemag.com/Archives/2003/Jul03/features/beware_the_dragon.htm)

This looks like the same turn in the video...

[PacWestGS]

The "Leader" first rider, failed to negotiate this corner because of speed, failed to plan the next move ahead of the last, looked at the dangerous drop-off and said, "Oh Sh!t" kept looking at the drop-off and drove right into it, without trying to continue to turn the motorcycle to any part of its limits. Another words, he "Panic'd" froze and went where he was looking.

The second rider, was looking at his leader and followed to the point of saying, sh!t, this ain't good but I can go through this and stop.

That is why I hate "Group Rides". If the group leader drives off a cliff the second rider usually follows... :lurk

[Mika]

The "Leader" first rider, failed to negotiate this corner because of speed, failed to plan the next move ahead of the last, looked at the dangerous drop-off and said, "Oh Sh!t" kept looking at the drop-off and drove right into it, without trying to continue to turn the motorcycle to any part of its limits. Another words, he "Panic'd" froze and went where he was looking...

Doc, I agree with you up until you say he panics. Look at it again. He passes, his brake light comes on and then he skids. Instead of leaning into the turn, to either make it or low side, he steers into the slide as you would in a car. He was driving not riding. He did not use the right skill set.

[gfspencer]

Why do I consider the "Dragon" to be the wrong road? Because it has 318 tight turns in 11-miles. There isn't a bar every 1/5 mile to stop at, and if you don't have the skills to negotiate this road in a safe and prudent manner, you crash over the edge.

+1

IMHO most of the cruiser riders who ride Deal's Gap don't have a clue about what they are in for. Someone has told them about “The Dragon” and they think it will be a good place to go for a ride. So ten guys show up on their hogs - with their old ladies on the back - and they think they are going to have a fun time. And they start their ride and it scares the crap out of them. There are too many turns and too many sport bikes going too fast. And they get into trouble. It is not a place to “cruise”.

Most of you have seen the dumbbell giving a high sign in one frame and low-siding his bike in the next. That was Deal’s Gap. Most of you have seen the guy who grounds his floorboards and steers into another Harley. That was Deal’s Gap. And we all looked at this video . . . . (Yes, I know that sport bike riders screw up there too . . . on a weekly basis.)

As one person noted, there is a speed limit but not many riders obey the speed limit there. (If you get caught speeding you get a ticket - usually on the Tennessee side. That’s fine.) And then you come upon a bunch of inexperienced "cruisers" doing 25 mph! What a crock!

I stay away from Deal’s Gap on weekends. There are too many other good places to ride in the Georgia/Tennessee/North Carolina mountains.

[PacWestGS]

Actually that's conjecture, we don't know if he "panics" or not, we're not him. :doh :huh

But he definately didn't try to make the next corner, not even straight.

Was alcohol involved? Don't know that either.

Is he a "Skilled" rider, maybe on a different road, he may have 100,000s miles, but none required him to turn.

"Hazard Fixation" it's hard not to get sucked into it, and fail to do something right after the fact. :brow

[dlearl476]

Now for the GOOD news: He DIDN'T straighten up and high-side himself under the wheels of the van. May have been luck, maybe not. IMHO, leading a ride, "show-boating" and riding above his ability.

[Burnszilla]

Did he live?

[Mika]

I hope so.

All in all it makes a fun video as long as you are not the rider. Can't wait for the sequel...HD riders at speed on the Cabot Trail. Can he swim?

[flash412]

It's a public road, with a 35 mph speed limit, that tractor trailer rigs use on occasion. . . why would it be the wrong place & why would a Harley be the wrong bike?Because Harleys do not stop very well at all and cannot go around a corner without dragging enough crap to lever the rear tire off the road. The fact that they do not accelerate may have also had a factor in this particular offroad excursion. Harleys are made for two things, going down long straight roads (unless it is too hot) and parking in front of a bar. Twisty roads such as the Dragon are neither long and straight nor a parking lot. Therefore, the Harley is the wrong bike for that place. Oh, he would have been fine at 35 mph. But then... the motor home would probably have been trying to pass HIM.

[BradfordBenn]

I think the root cause was failing to plan eight seconds ahead. The leader was thinking two seconds ahead in my opinion

[hlothery]

As usual, I guess I'm just way out there, and I'll take a pounding for my opinion, but here goes.....

I grew up in that area, and I believe that they are public roads with safely posted speed limits. Anyone, in almost any vehicle, can experience a beautiful drive if they follow those limits. The problem there, and on many other Western NC roads, are the folks in all kinds of vehicles, who want to experience Superbike/Formula 1/Nascar experiences on a public roadway where there are folks, with their kids, just trying to enjoy the mountain scenery. They are the reason I don't go to Deal's Gap, which is unfortunate for me and many others. Speed and cornering prowess are best demonstrated on a track. Patience and reason are necessary on public roadways.

OK, fire away...... :hide

[wuli959]

As usual, I guess I'm just way out there, and I'll take a pounding for my opinion, but here goes.....

I grew up in that area, and I believe that they are public roads with safely posted speed limits. Anyone, in almost any vehicle, can experience a beautiful drive if they follow those limits. The problem there, and on many other Western NC roads, are the folks in all kinds of vehicles, who want to experience Superbike/Formula 1/Nascar experiences on a public roadway where there are folks, with their kids, just trying to enjoy the mountain scenery. They are the reason I don't go to Deal's Gap, which is unfortunate for me and many others. Speed and cornering prowess are best demonstrated on a track. Patience and reason are necessary on public roadways.

OK, fire away...... :hide


nah, you're right on. I lived in that area for about 10 years starting in the late '70s and it was a 3 or 4 times a week fun ride. I've ridden deals gap on everything from a bicycle (time trails), H-D (Road King), various BMWs & one time on a Husky motard and have always managed to have a great time and not go off the road in a poof of parts. Then again, I wasn't trying to ride 9/10s or set speed records on a public road with who knows what cutting the corner coming at you.

In the last few years, they've done a great job marketing the area as a riding destination; but when you see track bikes being unloaded to "run the dragon" for Time, IMHO, it's gone over the top. Now the current knowledge "buy-in" is to the point that we have some that think that certain types of motorcycles shouldn't be on a public road because it has curves in it. :p

With just a little local knowledge, there are too many great riding roads around that area to risk being taken out by an errant bike, car, or rv that has a crappy pilot.

[basketcase]

And I sure hope the Harley dude came through it okay. Thankfully, he was with a group and they saw where he went over the edge. Otherwise, that guy could have been in deeper trouble.

Last time I was at the gap, just a few days (or maybe a week) before we arrived someone had crashed -- and that crash led to the discovery of the remains of a rider who had disappeared a year earlier.

Next, we arrived about 8 PM and learned that on that very morning a man had gone over the edge of one of the cliffs with his teen aged son riding pillion. As I recall, the man was killed, but the boy survived and they were found when he managed to crawl back up the cliff and onto the shoulder of the road.

Suffice it to say, one can get into trouble very quickly at the gap and literally never be seen again.

Before getting onto BMW's my re-entry bike was a Honda cruiser, and after studying up on and practicing counter steering and other good riding technique, I rode that sucker like a sport bike. It felt like it was hinged in the middle, but I still got the most out of it on the twisties.

I've passed pickups, automobiles, and RV's on the same stretch of road. Riding towards Tennessee, I once followed a flat-bed rig through the gap but elected not to pass when the driver trailed the (empty) trailer up onto the right side embankment and dragged dirt and rocks down onto the roadway. Naturally, he was taking up the left lane with the trailer on those turns. Meanwhile it was all I could do to avoid the hazards he was creating, much less plan a passing maneuver. :huh

Soo ... with a view to all the things that go into effective riding, (and safety being relative based on the situation) my take is that the crash in the video was due to rider error and inability.

Finally, I wonder how the ladies in that RV feel about being in the company of such a class group of weenies... :dunno

[PacWestGS]

In the last few years, they've done a great job marketing the area as a riding destination; but when you see track bikes being unloaded to "run the dragon" for Time, IMHO, it's gone over the top. Now the current knowledge "buy-in" is to the point that we have some that think that certain types of motorcycles shouldn't be on a public road because it has curves in it. :p

With just a little local knowledge, there are too many great riding roads around that area to risk being taken out by an errant bike, car, or rv that has a crappy pilot.

Wuli, I think we are in agreement here. It's the hype that pushes people to ride above their skills or push the physical limits of their equipment beyond their abilities.

You can be in and defend the camp that says "Anybody can do whatever they want, on anything they have" Or, you can be in the camp that says, "Some people shouldn't attempt certain things on certain things".

Its not just the Dragon/Deal's Gap, we have roads out here on the Left-Coast that people drive/ride too fast and crash.

I ride an 1150GS, I can ride it fast, but normally I choose to enjoy moment. When I get asked by someone at a gas station or elsewhere, "How fast does it go", I reply with "Fast enough".

"Life is already too short, why expedite the process"?

:bikes (All kinds)

If I had a S or RS or LT, I wouldn't take it where I take my GS just different designs with specific purposes in mind... :dunno

A few years ago, some guy rode an R1 around the world. Lot's of people have tried to do that on anything from R1150GSA to KLR650 and never made it, would I try it on an R1, no, but that's not to say it can't be done... :p

Doc

[Motorman]

It's already been pointed out but there was a very visible double yellow line there and the rider passed on a curve with more curves right behind it. He has no one to blame but himself. It is NOT a private track where everyone is going the same direction. It's a public road with quite a bit of traffic on it doing the same stupid things in BOTH directions.

I rode "the dragon" before it was known by that name. I learned real quick to not be on it on the weekends as every ricky racer wanna be on wheels would be there being STUPID on that road.

I rode it again last summer during the week and decided it's likely to be the last time I'm on it. It is simply too damn full of folks with their aligator asses way over their tweety bird riding / driving ability. The final clincher to me was sitting on an overlook and watching a small convoy of 5 BMW cars going down the rode using both sides of the pavement and less than a car length between cars.Had I been riding to the over look a minute later they would have taken out my wife and I on our bike as they came around a blind corner in our lane.

Frankly the "dragon" is constipated now and I don't want to be near the pile of s**t when it comes unstuck.

I heard a lot of bitching from other bikers at that overlook about the Troopers setting up radar and traffic monitoring stations on the road on the weekends. I don't know why they are complaining because I can easily see the road being either closed or turned into a restricted passage if this kind of situation keeps up.

[RTRandy]

First of all. Regardless of the poor skills the rider had, and yes he had terribly poor skills, the folks in the van should have stopped. Period. They were part of the problem even though the rider had no business crossing the double line and they never tried to help. Let's assume the guy was hurt and needed to be taken somewhere. Are they thinking one of his friends is going to use a fireman's carry and ride him over their shoulder for some help?

I rode many roads on my recent trip where some A*^hole driver in an RV refused to pull off to the side in one of those "Pull outs" designed to allow faster vehicals to pass on these kinds of roads so I know the frustration. Still no excuse for agressive riding above his skills.

I have to tell you, my ride through Deals Gap was smooth with no incident with little traffic on a Thursday morning. But after riding it, it occurrred to me that's it's more of a big deal for exactly those riders: Cruisers ,Wingers,and Trikes

Here's a shot taken a few weeks ago on a Thursday morning. You tell me who tries to ride that roadhttp://rpscott.smugmug.com/photos/84227323-L.jpg

Here's a guy dressed out in his full armor.
http://rpscott.smugmug.com/photos/84227578-L.jpg

Folks getting ready for the ride.http://rpscott.smugmug.com/photos/84227714-L.jpg

[IAMBOB]

He definitely flew for a moment.

Some times you get what is coming when you hang it out like that. Hope he was alright.

I particularly like the part where the chicken in the motorhome says they better get going before they take a beating. Example of excellent citizenry. Jaggoffs.
Actually I think it's more of the developed Harley stereotype coming back to slap them in the face..

gangsters.. you hurt my brother you hurt me... "earned" colors.. etc.. etc..

And they were dressed the part, even if they weren't really the part (poser)

[Motorman]

RTRandy,

While I can fully understand the idea that the RV should have helped the guy who illegally passed them and drove himself of of the road, I don't understand why you think they were "part of the problem". They were driving in their lane at a speed appropriate for the road (likely close to the speed limit as well) in a vehicle that is allowed to be on the road.

Now if the biker decides to pass over the yellow lines how are the folks in the RV to blame? Secondly if the biker is injured they are not qualified to transport nor provide treatment nor do they have any other options in the RV to bring the guy up over the cliff other than carrying him over their shoulder. That's why you call for people who ARE equiped and trained for that job.

Lastly the RV is fully occupying the lane where they were as there is no place to pull over. Even one of the folks in the clip noted that. If they stay there they are blocking the road in the middle of a series of curves and reducing it to one lane for 2 way travel. That will likely cause more problems when the next set of idiots come flying down the road.

There are RV'ers who drive just as irresponsibly as that biker did but this clip didn't show that. That road is public and open to all vehicles including trucks. Just becuse you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't supposed to be there.

[PacWestGS]

Isn't it still a law in this country that if you are "First" witness to an "Event" that you are required by law, to provide some form of assistance or at least wait until you are released by the law officer on scene. No one was beating their a$$ or even yelling at them.

(They always have the option of leaving when that happens. Remember "Cleatus" ((Smoky and the Bandit)) leaving the biker bar in his 18-wheeler, after a good a$$-whuppin'?).

They could have provided some assistance, a first aid kit, blankets, other common rescue tools not found on most MCs, traffic control until the other rider's recoverd their friend.

Like I said in my first post, I can understand being affraid, but they didn't even offer help, they just sat in their vehicle calling them names that can't be written here...

No matter how dumb I do something (and I do), like pass an RV (over a double yellow) that has not yielded to faster traffic. If I crashed, I would hope they would offer to help my "Dumb A$$" before calling me names and driving off.

JMO
YMMV

Doc

[RTRandy]

RTRandy,


Now if the biker decides to pass over the yellow lines how are the folks in the RV to blame?
I didn't say they were to blame, I said they were part of the problem. They were involved in the scenario and were a witness.

My point is what if they are the only ones who have a cell phone, or a CB, or rags to help stop bleeding?

Not sure I'm right on this one. They can have people walk back to flag oncoming traffic to stop. They can move up to a more visual place to stop. This was an accident on a 35mph road, not on a 75 mph interstate. I think once there's an accident with an injury, all bets are off. I believe drivers are required to stop when involved. Not to blame, . .involved. I think it's called failure to render aid and leaving the scene of an accident.

[ScottM]

Had an interesting conversation with a Cruiser rider the other day. I brought up counter-steering and he kind of glazed over. Asked him which way his bike would go if he pushed on the right grip, he said left. I then encouraged him to go out for a ride and try pushing on one grip and then the other and get back with me. :D
The next day it was like a light bulb went off. Told him about riders school and a couple of good books. Hope he continues to learn.

[Motorman]

Randy,

I can see your point about the being a witness and even having some first aid equipment. I disagree on the location and stopping being a non issue. The road may be posted at 35 MPH but a big part of the problem with that road is the failure of folks to adhere to it. With them in the middle of the road and no place to get even partially out of the road way it could be several collisions instead of just one. They could have dropped of one or two folks then moved the rig to a place where they could pull off.

On the other hand the part about getting their a**es kicked is also a part of the "culture" of motorcyclists. In this case it didn't do the biker any good. Folks not familiar with motorcyclists are often afraid of them.

[Mika]

Keep in mind we are only seeing the part of the video that the maker chose to show us. The van may have stopped, dropped of somebody or just kept going we don't know from what is shown.

As to the "they are going to kick our a$$es" comment. We also do not know what went on before this clip began.

Stopping may or may not be required by state law but not at the risk of putting others in danger. Ignoring the comment there were several others responding to the accident before the van could safely pull off and offer assitance. Again we do not know what was done in the end.

[phil]

Last time the wife and I went to Deals Gap about the halfway point (lookout area). We were across the road and and saw 6 Harley riders smoking pot and drinking beer. I remember looking at my wife and saying this is no place to be having a party and driving.

[tourunigo]

I hope so.

All in all it makes a fun video as long as you are not the rider. Can't wait for the sequel...HD riders at speed on the Cabot Trail. Can he swim?

....for a rider, what seems to be the most difficult on the Cabot Trail is being swept up in the beauty while also trying to negotiate (especially counter clockwise) the road. Swim? yes, but with limited mobility. Fly? mostly :eek. Great ride for ANY bike at all. -Bob

[PacWestGS]

Wuli, just for the record, yesterday I was helping a friend out on the WA State testing course for a motorcycle endorcement. He failed the cone slalom and needed help guiding his HD V-Rod (Night-Rod) through tight turns. In the process of detemining that his bike can do it, which ain't easy, I rode his bike for several attemps at the course. It doesn't turn like my GS, and I was dragging the foot-pegs around the parking lot at very low speeds and some higher speed passes back around to the start line again.

It's a very nice bike, lots of power and a very nice feel to it, but I recommended that he find a smaller more nimble bike to take the test on.

Coming from a 1150GS and 650GSD, having something with about 4" of ground clearence can be a challenge.

I'd still like to have one though... :D I'd like to have many more bikes, and they don't need to be BMWs... :brow

[phil]

Wuli, just for the record, yesterday I was helping a friend out on the WA State testing course for a motorcycle endorcement. He failed the cone slalom and needed help guiding his HD V-Rod (Night-Rod) through tight turns. In the process of detemining that his bike can do it, which ain't easy, I rode his bike for several attemps at the course. It doesn't turn like my GS, and I was dragging the foot-pegs around the parking lot at very low speeds and some higher speed passes back around to the start line again.

It's a very nice bike, lots of power and a very nice feel to it, but I recommended that he find a smaller more nimble bike to take the test on.

Coming from a 1150GS and 650GSD, having something with about 4" of ground clearence can be a challenge.

I'd still like to have one though... :D I'd like to have many more bikes, and they don't need to be BMWs... :brow

You are right Special Forces Doc.... They are nice bikes but they handle like crap. I like them also but cant see spending 20 large..........

[Belquar]

IN NJ there is no requirement to stop.

[wuli959]

Wuli, just for the record, yesterday I was helping a friend out on the WA State testing course for a motorcycle endorcement. He failed the cone slalom and needed help guiding his HD V-Rod (Night-Rod) through tight turns. In the process of detemining that his bike can do it, which ain't easy, I rode his bike for several attemps at the course. It doesn't turn like my GS, and I was dragging the foot-pegs around the parking lot at very low speeds and some higher speed passes back around to the start line again.


Good advice for your friend starting out. No one needs to start riding on a bike that large if they want to learn well. Just my opinion, however.

Bet those motorcycle cops on HDs probably would just burn through the course with their training. It's about the rider and his machine.

Bikes don't turn on their own :bikes

[Cliffy777]

I believe the biggest mistake these riders made was to be silly enough to pull a stupid manuever around a motor home where the occupants were making a video.

[pmdave]

I didn't download the Harley clip, because I would have had to change my security settings. I did study the "Blue Yamaha two up" photos.

First, I found it very interesting that a young (and apparently good looking) chick would climb on the back of a sport bike without some sort of protective gear. Is she so addicted to adrenaline that she's willing to risk her skin, her appearance, and possibly her mobility? Or has she just not thought this through, and that was her last motorcycle ride after the doctor was finished picking and scraping the asphalt bits out of her hide?

Second, I find it interesting that it's the rear tire (not the front tire) that seems to slide first. My suspicion is that the rider wanted to impress the folks with the cameras, went in very hot, and then panicked as something touched down, and rolled off the throttle. Engine compression braking is braking, and even with the added weight of a passenger, the rear tire just doesn't have enough traction for both aggressive cornering and braking.

Lastly, I used to feel empathy for riders who crashed. Perhaps they were victims of a wandering driver, or a blowout, or a diesel oil spill, poor bustards.

But I now recognize those riders who are attempting something really stupid, which also hints at some lack of smarts about controlling the riding environment. And I can't drum up much enthusiasm for getting all teary-eyed and helpful picking up the pieces following the results of that stupidity. If you can't handle the results of an error you made on your own, you really need to learn a lesson from the school of HK, and I'm not going to try to cushion the lesson.

So, if it appears you did it to yourself, don't plan on me stopping to help you. If I do, I might just give you an extra kick in the groin for giving us all a bad name and running up our insurance premiums.

Your job as a motorcyclist is to maintain control of your machine and get the @#$% out of the way of everyone else.

pmdave

[BeemoKat]

I didn't download the Harley clip, because I would have had to change my security settings. I did study the "Blue Yamaha two up" photos.

First, I found it very interesting that a young (and apparently good looking) chick would climb on the back of a sport bike without some sort of protective gear. Is she so addicted to adrenaline that she's willing to risk her skin, her appearance, and possibly her mobility? Or has she just not thought this through, and that was her last motorcycle ride after the doctor was finished picking and scraping the asphalt bits out of her hide?

Second, I find it interesting that it's the rear tire (not the front tire) that seems to slide first. My suspicion is that the rider wanted to impress the folks with the cameras, went in very hot, and then panicked as something touched down, and rolled off the throttle. Engine compression braking is braking, and even with the added weight of a passenger, the rear tire just doesn't have enough traction for both aggressive cornering and braking.

Lastly, I used to feel empathy for riders who crashed. Perhaps they were victims of a wandering driver, or a blowout, or a diesel oil spill, poor bustards.

But I now recognize those riders who are attempting something really stupid, which also hints at some lack of smarts about controlling the riding environment. And I can't drum up much enthusiasm for getting all teary-eyed and helpful picking up the pieces following the results of that stupidity. If you can't handle the results of an error you made on your own, you really need to learn a lesson from the school of HK, and I'm not going to try to cushion the lesson.

So, if it appears you did it to yourself, don't plan on me stopping to help you. If I do, I might just give you an extra kick in the groin for giving us all a bad name and running up our insurance premiums.

Your job as a motorcyclist is to maintain control of your machine and get the @#$% out of the way of everyone else.

pmdave


I'm going to make my ABSOLUTELY LAST whine about the VT rally in this unrelated thread: I would have really liked to attend a "Coffee with Dave" session in Vermont! I hope you are planning to be in Wisconsin!

[ultracyclist]

Coffee with pmdave sounds great...but I am looking forward to his presentation on riding in crosswinds.

I cannot download the harley accident, either.

[ScottM]

After re-reading a lot of the posts in this thread, I went back in and played the video. I stopped it just as the rider goes off the road. His position is unusual to say the least. His right arm is straight, but his body is leaning off the left side of the bike (causing him to be at full reach to the right grip). Looks to me like he had absolutely no idea how to put the bike into the turn.

[pmdave]

I do suspect that lots of motorcyclists don't have a very good grasp of motorcycle control. BMW riders have been exposed to the techniques through such things as ON articles. But the mainstream motorcycle magazines rarely--if ever--say anything about riding skills. Nor do most motorcycle dealers. Apparently, since the industry has spent a ton of money with the MIC and MSF, they have done "all they can do" to help riders manage the risks.

Several years ago I was heading north from the RA rally at Fontana Village, through Deal's Gap. Since it was Sunday, I tried to find some locations where I could shoot pictures of the carnage, but it was afternoon and apparently too late for the Sunday riders.

But while I was parked at an elbow with camera at the ready, along came a young man on a Japanese-something--maybe an older Suzuki 850--and he stopped to see what I was doing. After a few preliminary exchanges, including some comments on riding skills, I asked how he countersteered; whether he pulled on the high grip or pushed on the low grip, or what? He didn't have the foggiest notion of what I was talking about.

After a while he excused himself, and departed in the direction from which he had come. Apparently he then turned around and came back to impress me with his bravado. The pavement across from me made a sharp RH uphill turn with a major hump where the pavement changed altitude. The rider apexed early, hit the hump, gained a little "air", and shot across the pavement and into the opposing ditch. Recovering, he wobbled back onto the pavement and crossed back to the right just short of a blind LH turn. Had anyone been coming the other way, he would have been instant toast.

The rider turned around, came back to where I was standing, and offered, "I guess I screwed up there, huh?"

pmdave

[PacWestGS]

"I guess I screwed up there, huh?"

Yep, thanks Dave... :huh

I think riders screw up everytime they FU, me included. :D

[kbasa]

The sad fact is that, for many riders, going around a corner is not a repeatable occurrence. They don't have any consistent method for making their motorcycle do what they want it to do.

I think there's a big hole in motorcycle training. We have the MSF courses, which teach you to piddle around a parking lot just fine, and we have race track courses, which teach you to haul ass around a track.

There's little in the middle to help teach people how to go around a corner at 40mph consistently.

[bubbagazoo]

Absolutely bang on Dave. NAIT offers motorcycle rider safety training at the beginner, intermediate and advanced level. However, the intermediate and advanced level courses are run subject to the interest level of the potential students. A month or so ago, I checked their calendar and there were no intermediate or advanced courses scheduled for anytime during this current training year. Even though I have been licensed for almost ever, I took the basic course in April because I had been away from riding for almost 20 years.

So, in order to improve my skills, I have purchased the first of pmdave's books and have been making a concerted effort to put the skills he describes into effect. However, it is not easy practicing cornering when all of the roads are straight as an arrow. :laugh

[soffiler]

The sad fact is that, for many riders, going around a corner is not a repeatable occurrence. They don't have any consistent method for making their motorcycle do what they want it to do.

I think there's a big hole in motorcycle training. We have the MSF courses, which teach you to piddle around a parking lot just fine, and we have race track courses, which teach you to haul ass around a track.

There's little in the middle to help teach people how to go around a corner at 40mph consistently.


Some methods of addressing the problem might be:

- more rigorous MSF courses
- more rigorous testing to obtain a license
- a graduated licensing program that limits engine HP and/or displacement until a certain experience level is reached

I don't pretend to know all the pro's and con's and in's and out's of the above suggestions, but I do believe it would be awfully nice if we could formally (with the force of law) try to slam some additional edumakashun down the throats of some of the morons out there.

With regards to my third suggestion - imagine if he'd been on a Suzuki DRZ-400 Supermoto or any other small lightweight bike that will go exactly where you are thinking with the lightest of control inputs. That would teach volumes about motorcycle handling...

[kbasa]

Some methods of addressing the problem might be:

- more rigorous MSF courses
- more rigorous testing to obtain a license
- a graduated licensing program that limits engine HP and/or displacement until a certain experience level is reached

I don't pretend to know all the pro's and con's and in's and out's of the above suggestions, but I do believe it would be awfully nice if we could formally (with the force of law) try to slam some additional edumakashun down the throats of some of the morons out there.

With regards to my third suggestion - imagine if he'd been on a Suzuki DRZ-400 Supermoto or any other small lightweight bike that will go exactly where you are thinking with the lightest of control inputs. That would teach volumes about motorcycle handling...

I think the big problem is that courses that address that middle ground are very, very rare.

[Burnszilla]

The sad fact is that, for many riders, going around a corner is not a repeatable occurrence. They don't have any consistent method for making their motorcycle do what they want it to do.

I think there's a big hole in motorcycle training. We have the MSF courses, which teach you to piddle around a parking lot just fine, and we have race track courses, which teach you to haul ass around a track.

There's little in the middle to help teach people how to go around a corner at 40mph consistently.

When my friend Peter and I go out for a day ride in the mountains we call it "Training." A ride up Mount Hamilton, over to Patterson, up to Livermore and down Calaveras Road is a great ride to practice cornering techiques. I'm sure you all have a road/ride that you do that on. Half way through the ride, at lunch we talk about riding techniques and critique eachother. The class is about 250 miles. :)

[PacWestGS]

I think the big problem is that courses that address that middle ground are very, very rare.

FWIW, That is hopefully my future. I guess I would say that is where my head is right now. I'm writing to get the word out, I'm working on becoming an MSF Rider Coach for some form of recongnized certification, and the last step is to create a "Rider's Workshop" out here on the west coast.

Now if I can just make the financial jump from a full time secure money making job to something relying on customers to succeed.

Beginner, Novice, Experienced or so-called-experienced riders can all learn how to do it better. I saw a lot of that on my journey across America because I saw a lot of riders making the same mistakes in front of me or in my mirrors.

Am I the "BEST" rider in the world? Not by a long shot. Can I teach people? Can I show and explain how to do something better "SMOOTHER" and with more control? You bet I can...

I'm looking at something along the same lines as the one on the east coast; we assemble, we talk, we ride on open public roads, we stop, we talk, we ride some more. For two or three days on all kinds of roads. In the evening we sit and talk and watch video of the day. The whole time you are riding there is some guy talking to your brain through a radio.

Anyone else interested in something like this? Should I jump head first and walk away from my secure money making job?

Alls I need is three to five riders every week to pay for this "Training". And, I'm there... :brad

Russ

[Burnszilla]

Great idea Russ.
I see that some new riders are too cheap or can't afford to buy protective riding gear after they bought their bike, and paying for a skills course may not be affordable to them too. It would be easy to market your course to MSF graduates as they walk out the MSF class.

Doc Wong http://www.docwong.com/ (scroll down on his page) in the Bay Area does a weekend skills ride for free. I think he caters to the japanese sport bike crowd.

[blake]

i find this a strange attitude coming from someone who's done a great deal to promote rider safety. we've met and talked before. i dont feel like i'm saying this to a total stranger.

not everyone is exposed to motorcycling in the same way. some never think about gear b/c nobody around them wears it and they just haven't thought it thru to the inevitable. i would think that your attitude would be more on the side of educating and sharing with uneducated riders.

squids dont add much quality to the world of motorcycling, but neither do grumpy old dudes sittin on their high horse and being extremely judgemental.


I didn't download the Harley clip, because I would have had to change my security settings. I did study the "Blue Yamaha two up" photos.

First, I found it very interesting that a young (and apparently good looking) chick would climb on the back of a sport bike without some sort of protective gear. Is she so addicted to adrenaline that she's willing to risk her skin, her appearance, and possibly her mobility? Or has she just not thought this through, and that was her last motorcycle ride after the doctor was finished picking and scraping the asphalt bits out of her hide?

Second, I find it interesting that it's the rear tire (not the front tire) that seems to slide first. My suspicion is that the rider wanted to impress the folks with the cameras, went in very hot, and then panicked as something touched down, and rolled off the throttle. Engine compression braking is braking, and even with the added weight of a passenger, the rear tire just doesn't have enough traction for both aggressive cornering and braking.

Lastly, I used to feel empathy for riders who crashed. Perhaps they were victims of a wandering driver, or a blowout, or a diesel oil spill, poor bustards.

But I now recognize those riders who are attempting something really stupid, which also hints at some lack of smarts about controlling the riding environment. And I can't drum up much enthusiasm for getting all teary-eyed and helpful picking up the pieces following the results of that stupidity. If you can't handle the results of an error you made on your own, you really need to learn a lesson from the school of HK, and I'm not going to try to cushion the lesson.

So, if it appears you did it to yourself, don't plan on me stopping to help you. If I do, I might just give you an extra kick in the groin for giving us all a bad name and running up our insurance premiums.

Your job as a motorcyclist is to maintain control of your machine and get the @#$% out of the way of everyone else.

pmdave

[PacWestGS]

Great idea Russ.
I see that some new riders are too cheap or can't afford to buy protective riding gear after they bought their bike, and paying for a skills course may not be affordable to them too. It would be easy to market your course to MSF graduates as they walk out the MSF class.

Yes, that is the hard part isn't it? Getting someone to take enough interest in their life to spend a little money on it.

Last time someone ask me what would be a good starter bike, I asked them how much money they had to spend on one. After that I told them to go into the bike shop, buy the best helmet they could afford, get some good MC gear (Jacket, pants, boots and gloves) and any money they had left over could be used to get their bike. If they couldn't afford $1,000 to $1,500 on safety gear they couldn't afford the bike they wanted. Then I'd tell them that the first Ambulance ride will cost anywhere from $2,500 to $5,000.


I could see this becoming a graduated course with 'Buddy' passes for a friend (read free) that go from half-day courses to fully paid: one, two, and three day courses that include lodging, breakfast/dinner and a copy of your ride on DVD and PM/MPM and Total Control books as part of the deal.

If I become very involved in the local MSF (BRC/ERC) then handing out 10% - 20% off business cards to graduates would be a step in the continuing education process.

It all sounds good to me, but I'm sceeerd to mortgage my life on something like you stated. "Who will pay to become better"?

[Motorman]

You can demand and require edumacation for riders but you can't be sure they simply won't just do a memory dump once they go out the door. sigh......

I guess I am one of those old grumpy men but I paid for my education in riding with a lot of sweat and effort to learn from folks who were trying to keep me alive in the toughest arena in the country, enforcement riding. I added to that over 30 years total now of experiance and I am STILL learning more things when I ride. I have "preached" the litany of education, gear, helmets and good motorcycle maintenance. It has often fallen on deaf ears with someone much younger who was convinced their youth gave them more insight than my years of experiance did. They know it all so they go on making the same damn mistakes leaving the same damn trails of skin on the pavement and sometimes their passengers like that string of photos that were mentioned in the posts above.

Ignorance is curable, stupidity is forever and often fatal. You can't saddle yourself with the guilt of the mistakes that others freely choose to make. I learned a long time ago that the world does NOT want to be saved and will actively fight you to keep from being saved. Do what you can but let them make their own choices as they will do so anyhow no matter what you require.

[Bob_M]

One of the many mistakes these riders made may have been to belive a common misconception. A general assumption with motorcyclists is that you have to be fast to be a good, or even a "real" motorcyclist. These guys may have thought they were "keeping it real" by going faster than they knew how to handle. It can not be said that I am a go-fast-guy. But it gets my goat when guys blow past me and I want to ride faster. As I am right in the middle of the old-fart demographic I have given up on being a knee dragging speed king. I think I have fun when I ride and no one has shown me otherwise. Motorcycling is part of my life, but not all of my life. I want to be strong on a bicycle, I want my garden to be a peaceful refuge. I want to do other stuff than motorcycle ride, but I never want to stop motorcycle riding. Thus far I have ridden within my limits despite the goading of riding of buddies to push harder, but it pains me to see them dissapear around a corner, then find them waiting for me up the road in a shady pull-out.

Russ: if you want to beta test your teaching skills PM me and I will run up North and put you to work.

FWIW, That is hopefully my future. I guess I would say that is where my head is right now. I'm writing to get the word out, I'm working on becoming an MSF Rider Coach for some form of recongnized certification, and the last step is to create a "Rider's Workshop" out here on the west coast.
Anyone else interested in something like this? Should I jump head first and walk away from my secure money making job?
Russ

I am so there. :wave

[k12koop]

I live very close to Deal's gap, the site of the wreck in the video....

You would be surprised how many wrecks i have seen that look just like that one. Not that corner but i would say more than half are an instant replay of that wreck.

A little speed, and to much rear brake. As soon as most of them lock the brake it is all over for them. Deal's Gap is not a real difficult road at the posted speeds and even above but it is not a place to learn how to turn. This guy is just lucky a 500 lb rocket was not coming from the other direction.

Koop

[pmdave]

Yes, I'll admit to being a grumpy old fart. Whether my judgmental comments add anything to the sport is a good question, but at this point in life I feel that I've earned the right to say whatever I think is to the point.

Re: SFDOC's idea of an "intermediate course", yes it's needed, but the MSF has a different agenda and a course beyond the ERC Suite is not on the MSF radar. The sad truth is that as the MSF has changed over the years, there are no staff members left who are skillful motorcyclists. They just don't have any subject matter experts on board who have a grasp of what we're talking about as "intermediate".

Most of the "track schools" (Ed Bargy, Kieth Code, Reg Pridmore, et al) are focused on rapid cornering on the track, and not on surviving public roads. There are a couple of "real world" intermediate courses available. The "Stayin' Safe" road courses created by Larry Grodsky are apparently still being offered, even after Larry's death. Lee Parks does his "Advanced Rider Course" here and there. It's a "parking lot" course, but emphasizes the critical skills Lee feels are missing in many riders. Team Oregon has been working on several different courses to deal with the gaps. And perhaps the most promising is the "Streetmasters Motorcycle Workshops", developed by an ex-MSF guy who rides public roads regularly. 805 464-0544.

Although I wouldn't discourage anyone from getting MSF certified, MSF certification does not mean some higher level of motorcycling knowledge or skill; it only means you have been trained to coach MSF courses. To retain your certification, you must teach a minimum number of courses per year--which means you really need to commit to MSF training, and make a firm agreement with a training site where you will do your time.

Because the level of training in MSF curricula is relatively "modest", I believe what's needed is a combination of better information spread more widely throughout the industry, more advanced formal training courses, and some system of new rider mentoring. Some rider coaches in New Mexico are in the process of a formalized mentoring program for a group of women riders, as described at the "coffee with Dave" at the RA rally in Boise. http://motofemina.blogspot.com/ I'm hoping they will document what they did and provide the information to others. Take a look and see what you think.

pmdave (the opinionated old curmudgeon)

[PacWestGS]

Thus far I have ridden within my limits despite the goading of riding of buddies to push harder, but it pains me to see them dissapear around a corner, then find them waiting for me up the road in a shady pull-out.

Russ: if you want to beta test your teaching skills PM me and I will run up North and put you to work.



I am so there. :wave

Bob, I'm there for you, you can buy me a beer (after the ride is over, of course) when do you want to get together? (Unfortunately this code red Sh!t: aviation) is interrupting my life right now. I'm usually off Thursday and Friday and next week if I'm not working again I have plans both days. I'd be happy to go for a ride and hopefully make some points that make you better.

It's always hard to hand out free advice, some people take offense unless that is why they showed up in the first place, I'm hoping that if people show up and pay for it they get what they paid for, but that will be later down the road of life. At least for me...

On road, off-road, commuting, somewhere in-between.

I love riding, I hate it when I see someone on a MC doing something stupid that will shorten their experience or give all of us a "bad name" in the process.

Time and place, time and place.


Bob, give me a time and place and we'll fine tune those skills you already have.


Russ


Personal hijack of thread over...

[BradfordBenn]

The challenge of learning how to ride safely is something that is never finished I have decided.

The training arm is the hardest part to figure out how to get consistent training that is accessible to people and affordable. The MOA Foundation underwriting ERC courses at the National Rally is a start but it is not a complete solution. However it has shown that BMW riders do want to learn more about riding safely which is a pretty good thing.

Unfortunately not everyone can make it to the national, or get a spot in the training.

[hlothery]

You can demand and require edumacation for riders but you can't be sure they simply won't just do a memory dump once they go out the door. sigh......

I guess I am one of those old grumpy men but I paid for my education in riding with a lot of sweat and effort to learn from folks who were trying to keep me alive in the toughest arena in the country, enforcement riding. I added to that over 30 years total now of experiance and I am STILL learning more things when I ride. I have "preached" the litany of education, gear, helmets and good motorcycle maintenance. It has often fallen on deaf ears with someone much younger who was convinced their youth gave them more insight than my years of experiance did. They know it all so they go on making the same damn mistakes leaving the same damn trails of skin on the pavement and sometimes their passengers like that string of photos that were mentioned in the posts above.

Ignorance is curable, stupidity is forever and often fatal. You can't saddle yourself with the guilt of the mistakes that others freely choose to make. I learned a long time ago that the world does NOT want to be saved and will actively fight you to keep from being saved. Do what you can but let them
make their own choices as they will do so anyhow no matter what you require.



You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

[pmdave]

I suggest that one big role of the MOA Foundation could be to develop a way to mentor less-experienced riders. The concept would be that a veteran rider, with some training in how to mentor, would be hooked up with one or more novices.

One key to mentoring is to provide some sort of instruction manual, so that the mentor and novice(s) could mull over the same information in some sort of logical manner. At the risk of seeming self-serving, I would suggest that Proficient Motorcycling would make a reasonable "manual", but certainly the Foundation could write it's own.

Another key would be to do some mentor training up front, to help a knowledgable rider learn how to coach. Being able to do something and being able to teach that subject to someone are two different things.

BMW dealers could be of considerable help, by observing people who are not as skillful as they should be, and making suitable references.

And, since we've got so many lawyers looking for work, it probably would be a good idea to come up with some sort of liability insurance. I know from experience that an Instructor Guide and certification is necessary to discuss insurance with a carrier. But I suspect that no one would be willing to cover on-road "training". AMA does have "event insurance". Perhaps MOA could come up with similar program.

Just thinking out loud here.

pmdave

[Burnszilla]

Seems like the human EGO would get in the way of these great ideas.

[BradfordBenn]

Just thinking out loud here.



:lurk

Listening and thinking.

[Mika]

Classes are great but is there a way to do something more structured on an individual basis? Could the Foundation and the Forum setup an online class that we all could take? Do it in step by step packets that we could pick and choose to work on based on our individual interest and needs. Have the Rider Skills section of the Forum for us to discuss what we learned, problems and what went well. Have Doc, pmdave or whoever is right to be a mentor available to dialogue on line at times. In a crude way:

STUDY: Pick an area or skill online to work on and learn what you can. Fill the gap between the ears with knowledge.

PRACTICE: Seek a safe environment and practice in real life what you have studied. This may be an empty parking lot or a back road. Some skills can be worked on and developed in your regular riding. That is in the end where you will use them.

DEBREAF: After the ride have an honest talk with those guys in the helmet that you ride with about what you read, your practice session and how the two matched up. Talk with your fellow riders online in the Rider Skills forum; seek out the skills mentors for specific questions.

REPEAT: Start the process over again. Reread the information on the topic or, if it is time, move on to the next one and run through the steps again.

Classes like MSF are great because someone is watching you and giving feedback. I am certain the things at the rally are excellent because the feedback I have read in ON and online confirms that. But can MOA set up a class someplace in Dakota County MN so it is easy for me to get to. I have been a member for 14 years and haven’t made it to a national so I have missed all that educational effort that was displayed there.

Face to Face is important. This idea is meant to augment that. Take your educational show on the road to the national, regional rallies. I want to learn but I may not be able to get there. Doc is in WA, Stuff2C is in FL, bubbagazoo is Alberta, I’m in the state of confusion. It is had to hold a class. Yet we see each other online on a regular basis. Our current class size could be over 13,000 online.


Just a thought.

[BradfordBenn]

Interesting idea.

[pmdave]

I suggest the first step is to set up a main section of the forum specifically for riding skills--as proposed by SFDOC elsewhere.

As the questions and responses begin to add up, we might be in a position to formalize some of it--say by creating a searchable database.

pmdave

[Woodie]

pmdave has an excellent idea in mentoring.

Relevant recent history:
Went on a "group ride" on Friday afternoon w/ 6 people from work. All on cruisers, except me. (R1100RTP) I chose to ride sweep, since the generally slow speed of the group frustrates me usually.

So, I watched the riders in formation going down highways, byways, and such. The rider in front of me was on her 3rd bike (2006 Harley 1200 something w/ a beautiful custom paint job). Saw many turning errors, including on the road, and in the parking lot. (failed to negotiate one turn--stopped in the middle of the intersection, then well into opposing lane in order to complete the turn).

So, today I emailed her, not without trepidation. I had met her once, and she wasn't a "new" rider. I immediately got a phone call, and a 10 minute conversation about turning, training classes etc. Turns out she had (parking lot) dropped her bike, and was still totally freaked out, and unable/unwilling to lean at all.

I hope that she follows through, and actually takes an ERC/ARC or something.

A way to formalize this, or structure it, or help people like me (20+ years, recent riding class) be a mentor would be really helpful.

[dancogan]

I suggest that one big role of the MOA Foundation could be to develop a way to mentor less-experienced riders. The concept would be that a veteran rider, with some training in how to mentor, would be hooked up with one or more novices.

One key to mentoring is to provide some sort of instruction manual, so that the mentor and novice(s) could mull over the same information in some sort of logical manner. At the risk of seeming self-serving, I would suggest that Proficient Motorcycling would make a reasonable "manual", but certainly the Foundation could write it's own.

Another key would be to do some mentor training up front, to help a knowledgable rider learn how to coach. Being able to do something and being able to teach that subject to someone are two different things.

BMW dealers could be of considerable help, by observing people who are not as skillful as they should be, and making suitable references.

And, since we've got so many lawyers looking for work, it probably would be a good idea to come up with some sort of liability insurance. I know from experience that an Instructor Guide and certification is necessary to discuss insurance with a carrier. But I suspect that no one would be willing to cover on-road "training". AMA does have "event insurance". Perhaps MOA could come up with similar program.

Just thinking out loud here.

pmdave

:thumb :thumb :thumb And a great project for the Foundation!

[BradfordBenn]

Great ideas, I am taking lots of notes... :lurk

[Stuff2C]

You can have all the learn'n in the world, but if you don't practice what you've learned, it's no good to you. He was practicing his Keith Code's high speed switchback lesson.

Hey everyone make a boo-boo every once and a while. :boldpurpl