BMW parts made in China...WTF! [Archive]

CTHalk

08-02-2006, 10:43 PM

The plant in China I mentioned is a plant that Pratt and Whitney Aircraft sent technicians to, to train Chinese workers to make aircraft engine replacement parts. There is no glass in the windows. As the warmer air comes in during the day and heats up the machines and fixtures..... metal changes size. Like when you heat a case to insert a chilled bearing easily. When the temps normalize, the fit is tight. I never mentioned AC. But I'll bet NASA parts aren't built in a building that doesn't have stabilized (constant) temperatures. Would anyone prefer to use Chinese made tools to work on their BMW? Wanna buy some band-aids? What I am getting at, is that if I am paying the premium price of BMW ownership, and I buy parts at the dealer to support them, I expect GERMAN parts. Seems I am paying a premium price for Walmart quality. Maybe that's why I have to replace the mainshaft at 43K miles, which seems to go against the idea of German reliability. How many of the parts on a BMW are actually made outside of Germany? That would be interesting to find out. Anybody have any insights?

plexiform

08-02-2006, 11:11 PM

Maybe its the attitude of the company in general that is changing, but I certainly agree if I am going to pay the premium prices at a BMW dealership, I ask for two things for my money: 1. German engineering, and 2. Loyalty to the customers that love BMW motorcycles. I was at the BMW dealership in Aurora, Ohio today with my 1988 R100rs to check out some accessories. I saw a nice set of Motolight driving lights and asked the salesman for price and whether that would be easily installed on my 88 airhead. He replied that my alternator may not be able to handle the extra juice the lights would probably need. I asked if there is a way to upgrade my alternator to accomodate the lights. he said "yeah! you should trade that thing in for a real bike." I wanted to punch the guy in the face...but he he was about a foot taller and a buck heavier than me, so I just stared at him in awe that a BMW motorcycle salesman could have the audacity to say one of the longest lasting designs in motorcycle history is not a real bike. I was very dissappointed. I hope this guy was just a mistake, and that BMW is not at the verge of alienating their most dedicated fans. In short, I hate that parts are made in China....its the beginning of the end.

Hodag

08-02-2006, 11:17 PM

german steel only also

jshuck

08-03-2006, 07:58 AM

I lived in Beijing for 4 years 96-2000. In the early days, quality control and consistency was a problem. We used to call it "the land of almost right". We learned to question everything. Ever seen a fake Coke? But now...all the fancy machine tools in the world are going to China. They are the largest scooter manufacturer in the world and their new 650 SV650 suzuki look-a-like is pretty neat. The intellectual property issues are still a big problem. There are 30 year olds who have never bought legal software and movies and see no reason why they should have to.
Sure, there are some Army plants that still use the "resident" work force, but these are falling by the wayside. I was around in 50's when Japanese meant crap. The Chinese are hard working folks who you have to show how to do a task once.. But... the Chinese part should be cheaper.. I have a problem with a bearing sold at German prices... but I suspect it all evens out..

hlothery

08-03-2006, 08:21 AM

Much of my prior ride, HD Road King, was made in China. Global economy is here, like it or not. My friends in the construction industry constantly lament the steel and copper prices, as China eats up all the raw materials the world can produce.

jdiaz

08-03-2006, 09:06 AM

But now...all the fancy machine tools in the world are going to China.
Excellent point. The factory that builds stuff for my company in China has all the newest production tools.

Intellectual property issues are a nightmare, especially now that folks are job hopping every year over there for 15% raises.

soffiler

08-03-2006, 09:18 AM

...But now...all the fancy machine tools in the world are going to China... The intellectual property issues are still a big problem. There are 30 year olds who have never bought legal software and movies and see no reason why they should have to....The Chinese are hard working folks who you have to show how to do a task once...

Hi John:

I've never travelled to China so take my obervations with a grain of salt as they are all second-hand. Speaking as a manufacturer in the USA who is adapting to the global economy, I am forced to deal with Chinese vendors, Chinese component parts, and Chinese finished goods on a daily basis. IMHO, all the fancy machine tools in the world can't fix the "problem" (or "issue" or choose your PC term) of culture. The Chinese are creative, resourceful, hardworking, and self-reliant. They tend to approach all problems with lots of manual effort and very little else, because, of course, what they have over there above all else is lots and lots of cheap labor. Beyond that, I personally believe you not only have to show them how to do a task once, you also need a supervisor who truly "gets it" to make sure they keep doing it the way you showed them. IMHO the highest quality goods coming out of China get that way and stay that way because the Chinese management has been made to understand and appreciate the demand for consistency, tight tolerances, high quality. They CAN do it, no question. Getting them to do it is a neat trick.

Eureka

08-03-2006, 09:40 AM

Just my two cents worth:

Have you bought anything lately that wasn't made in China??? I am astounded at the amount of consumer goods made in China. I fear that if we ever get into another "Great Conflict" that we (the USA) will be toast when it comes to manufacturing ability since we seem to have outsourced nearly all of our production capability to China and other third world countries.

But; like it or not, your $30 bearings would have probably cost twice as much if they had been made in Germany.

The only hope I see in all this is that the nations of the world become so dependent on each other for goods and products that they don't dare risk war.

Blaze away! :stick

kbasa

08-03-2006, 09:46 AM

It wasn't so long ago that a "Made in Japan" label would have elicited the same response. I think we can all agree that items made there can be among the highest quality in the world.

Expect to see the same progression with the Chinese.

jdiaz

08-03-2006, 10:04 AM

I fear that if we ever get into another "Great Conflict" that we (the USA) will be toast when it comes to manufacturing ability since we seem to have outsourced nearly all of our production capability to China and other third world countries.

We need to be worried about the manufacturing overcapacity issues that China are looking at around 2009.

Mika

08-03-2006, 10:07 AM

When a German business friend first saw my R100 he beamed and told me about the Berlin factory. He was from Berlin and returned regularly to visit family on the other side of the Wall. He described the plant on the West side as assembling parts made with cheap labor, in poorly maintained factories and on WWII vintage equipment on the East side. I do not know if he was right. He went on to say; "But they still have GERMAN quality (emphasis was his along with a big smile.) "

Where ever the stuff is made, it is still up to BMW to do some quality control and make certain that what they are selling is what was designed and ordered. China, Germany or the US it is about the job and we had best figure that out. JMHO

Easy

08-03-2006, 10:24 AM

We better get used to BMW parts being made in China, and for that matter in other countries we used to laugh at. I don't like either, but as some people say... "Them are the facts of life". Harley has been having this problem for a number of years now. I guess it's our turn to face the China part problem. I remember when we used to laugh about cars being made in Japan. Now they make some top of the line products. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that China makes, or ever will make, top of the line products, but the world is changing, and changing fast. Frankly, I don't think you will ever see reliable top of the line products come from a country that doesn't have the moral backbone to respect intellectual property rights. Call it what you will: globalized economy, cheep labor, intellectual property theft, sweat shops, Americans and Europeans not willing to work for lower wages, or even out-sourcing, but unfortunately, the situation is not going away any time soon. In fact, it seems like our government, by omission, is encouraging it.

Easy
Big Empty, Texas :usa

My toughest fight was with my first wife.
Muhammad Ali (1942 - )

flash412

08-03-2006, 11:08 AM

Why would anybody buy bearings from a BMW dealer when they can get quality bearings at any bearing house for a quarter of the price? BMW buys cheap, puts a roundel on the package and charges LOTS for the "service." (PT Barnum must have observed the BMW MOA.)

jshuck

08-03-2006, 11:16 AM

My wife was in a big management position with a major company in China. Her feelings are that they are very hard working.. she has never worked harder. But the gang is not too intuitive. They can do that job with no question, but when asked what they "think" about somethig, you get some blank stares. Again, all that is changing too...real fast.

Friends with manufacturing facilities in China also had problem with sliding quality. Things would start out great, but months later things get put aside. I noticed many rubber trim items on my new CJ motorcycle looked great for about 6 months, but they forget to put the stuff in the rubber that protected it from UV light.. probably because it was cheaper. But like I say... that has changed greatly. A friend who used to work for Pratt and Whitney built turbine blades that were man machined better that the automated machines.

kbasa

08-03-2006, 11:19 AM

(PT Barnum must have observed the BMW MOA.)

Nice way to talk about your fellow club members.

The_Veg

08-03-2006, 12:51 PM

Thanks Hugh for reminding me of the copper issue. One day in June the price of copper tripled, and the timing really screwed the numbers on a job my little 2-man company was doing. Some subcontracted plumbing was sold at $4600 and wound up costing $16000 because of the copper tripling. We're trying to figure out other ways of getting the difference out of the client, since the client is a hospital and therefore doesn't like to pay for things.
[/hijack]

SheRidesABeemer

08-03-2006, 01:18 PM

Seems like some people need to wake up and smell the global economy. It's naive to think or care that your German bike is 100% German made, and believe that it really matters. American made, German made, Made in Japan, they are all technical terms now, as parts and pieces are made where ever the labor is cheap, they are assembled here and there, and through some technical mumbo jumbo :deal are allowed to stick the preffered "Made In" tag on them.

CTHalk

08-03-2006, 01:20 PM

I figured I would help keep the shop going. I replaced the rear wheel bearings on a friends Jag. Dealer price on the bearings was about $60 and $40 each. I got the same spec bearings at a bearing supply house for $7 and $5 each. I'm going back to that place, even though it is a drive. By the way, I hear the local BMW dealer is giving up their BMW frachise (bought by a major HD dealer) and will now carry polaris products and.... Moto Guzzi!

flash412

08-03-2006, 01:26 PM

Nice way to talk about your fellow club members.Only the ones who pay a premium for goods that are available a multitude of other places, often better quality, always for less money such as light bulbs, fuses, bearings, seals, tires, oil, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, I know the "party line"... "But THIS one has a ROUNDEL(!) on the wrapper and therefore it MUST be better!"

Does it leave any sort of rash when they remove your wool?

Mika

08-03-2006, 01:34 PM

Keep in mind flash that many do not have your experience with bikes or as an engineer. They feel confident enough to do the work but not to shop in alternative sources for parts. They can find the BMW part number, search for the best price and order it. Good bad or indifferent as the quality may be they have the specified part.

Perhaps something like – How to shop for parts in alternative sources - could be an article you could write for the forum or ON. Share some of your knowledge. Barnum was speaking about the uniformed and lazy. If we are buying bearings to work on our own bikes we are not lazy, but we may need some better information.

hlothery

08-03-2006, 03:33 PM

flash412

08-03-2006, 04:32 PM

Perhaps something like – How to shop for parts in alternative sources - could be an article you could write for the forum or ON. Share some of your knowledge. Barnum was speaking about the uniformed and lazy. If we are buying bearings to work on our own bikes we are not lazy, but we may need some better information.At the risk of casting pearls before swine... Anybody who is buying a bearing has one to look at. The bearing has a manufacturer's name and a bearing number on it. Any bearing house can cross it. They can do the same with seals. But seals generally say what size they are. Occasionally a BMW parts drawing will even tell you. A light bulb? Please... take it to Autozone or Cragans or whatever your nearest cheapo cage bits place is. Fuses? Same thing. Oil? Unlike the religious zealots out there, I used actual science to determine that oil is oil in my bike. I buy mine by the gallon at WalMart. Nuff said.

Don't argue with me about oil unless you have assays run on your oil in your bike to back up what you believe is truth. (And to think they recently opened a "science museum" dedicated to creationism in Kentucky. Sheesh.)

There is this thing called the World Wide Web. And there is a thing called a search engine. Google.com is a good one. You'll be amazed what men in the box-trucks will bring you if you have an internet connection and a credit card. They will deliver stuff to your home or place of employment faster and cheaper and with a LOT less aggravation than your local dealer can or will, even genuine BMW parts. Unlike YOUR local BMW shop, there ARE dealers that stock stuff and some of them even sell at a DISCOUNT.

If BMW had a lick of sense, they'd supply EVERY owner with parts directly from the warehouse via the shipping mode of your choice based on your desire, situation and wallet. Then they'd credit the local dealer by zipcode with a few percent profit. But, noooo, no more Vehicle Off Road for the people who actually ride and want or need to buy parts. THAT attitude is what started me looking for alternative sources every chance I get.

NEVER buy an electrical part without first checking with your local Napa or CarQuest or other REAL car parts chain, or else with the local Japanese or European bike suppliers as seems appropriate, first. Same goes for brake parts. Check only bike shops for brake parts, however.

Here's an example. My local NAPA sold me a thermostatic fan switch for my F650 for $18. BMW list price is $27. I didn't even bother to ask my local dealer because I KNOW he doesn't stock it because he doesn't stock anything. He often charges more than list. AND the BMW dealer hits my credit card the day I order it, not the day some weeks later when he manages to let me know it is available for pickup. What exactly did he do to earn the float on MY money for parts he doesn't even have? Anyway, the $18 fan switch fits... BMW cars. Go figure. I saved $9, two weeks and about 15 miles worth of gasoline and time.

I don't care if my local dealer goes out of business. Apparently neither does BMW. If they did, they'd wise up. I haven't been in there since about March, when I went in for some Ducati valve shims. Funny thing is, they traded me straight across. So they didn't make any money off me for the (Ducati) parts that they DO happen to have in stock. I have learned not to ask my local dealer for parts. I have learned that pretty much ANYWHERE is better than MY local dealer for parts.

BMW seems to have misunderstood something about Just In Time inventory. Sure, NOT stocking stuff is good for your balance sheet. But the flip side is that you must have the ability to get it when you need it, FAST. BMW chooses not to stock anything and paradoxically refuses to move the parts from their warehouse to the customers any faster than an arthritic snail can carry it.

Avoid BMW whenever possible. When it is impossible, avoid dealers that refuse to stock any inventory. Since you'll be ordering online, also avoid dealers who charge the full list price. Support the dealer who has it, will ship it today (via your method of choice) and will sell it to you at a discount. THAT is the man whose business we WANT to see grow. (Maybe he will eventually buy your local dealership when it goes under and then you WILL be able to get the parts you need TODAY.)

One last word of advice... tires. www.SWMotoTires.com. Buy your tires in the winter BEFORE you need them. Learn to mount them yourself. Buy a Harbor Freight Salvage tire machine (with the motorcycle tire adapter) and a Marc Parnes balancer. If you've been buying your tires from your dealer and having him mount them, ONE set of tires will probably pay for these tools. From then on... gravy.

FredRydr

08-03-2006, 05:10 PM

...BMW seems to have misunderstood something about Just In Time inventory. Sure, NOT stocking stuff is good for your balance sheet. But the flip side is that you must have the ability to get it when you need it, FAST. BMW chooses not to stock anything and paradoxically refuses to move the parts from their warehouse to the customers any faster than an arthritic snail can carry it.

Avoid BMW whenever possible. When it is impossible, avoid dealers that refuse to stock any inventory. Since you'll be ordering online, also avoid dealers who charge the full list price. Support the dealer who has it, will ship it today (via your method of choice) and will sell it to you at a discount....
I am dealing with this issue now. My very local dealer waited before ordering a part, even though when I made the service appointment, I reminded them of their warning (from the previous service) that I would need that very part. So BMW FedEx's it. It doesn't arrive. So my bike sits in their shop an extra day. And the dealer never seems to learn that customers notice.

At least I am going to pick a real nice loaner for tomorrow. How about an Aprilia?

Fred

flash412

08-03-2006, 06:12 PM

... At least I am going to pick a real nice loaner for tomorrow. How about an Aprilia?GREAT bikes. I have two. Both of my Aprilias say BMW on the side because they are carbureted F650s.

Motorman

08-03-2006, 07:04 PM

Our government is responsible for BMW outsourcing parts to China. Man that's a real reach. :bluduh :boldpurpl

kbasa

08-03-2006, 07:06 PM

Only the ones who pay a premium for goods that are available a multitude of other places, often better quality, always for less money such as light bulbs, fuses, bearings, seals, tires, oil, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, I know the "party line"... "But THIS one has a ROUNDEL(!) on the wrapper and therefore it MUST be better!"

Does it leave any sort of rash when they remove your wool?

Jeez, dude. You get up on the wrong side of the bed today or something?

BradfordBenn

08-03-2006, 07:36 PM

One of the things that can be an issue is using non approved items when filing a warranty claim. Now for bikes out of warranty, it is not a big deal, but if it is under warranty I am going to error on the side of caution.

Working for a manufacturer we get lots of items in for repair where the user has "fixed" it themselves. They look at a schematic and see that we use a 1kilohm resistor for something, so they go and buy a 1k resistor some place and put it in. Then once the unit gets hot the resistor pops because it is not rated for the heat. So then it blows out other traces on the board and causes cascade failures. But the specs on the specification sheet were the same.

It is the other information that is not always displayed that is the difference. I am not saying that it applies to everything, but it does apply to certain components. I know for a fact that we have some proprietary devices that at first blush appear to be the same as off the shelf parts. The specification sheets look the same. There are other attributes that we don't share as it is proprietary.

So having said that, I prefer going with the BMW stuff. It is MY decision. Everyone has to make their own.

Also just cause one reads it on the internet doesn't make it fact.

Do what makes you comfortable

Now back to China, I can tell you that we outsourced our simplest products over there because of the intellectual property issues. We also wrote the specification for the vendor to include the work conditions, anti static, ambient temperature, humidity level... etc. We also have a few people over there full time on OUR payroll to monitor this stuff. It is just like any other country, one needs to monitor your supplier careful. Same thing happens here in the states.

Oh yeah, regarding German quality. My favorite story is about a company that used to make their own screws instead of buying them. They are a very prestigious audio company, why were they making screws? So that they had complete control over the process and did not have to wait for a supplier if they ran out. It is a non rated retaining screw, it costs less then a penny in bulk - it cost them 6 cents each. So sometimes it can go overboard.

flash412

08-03-2006, 08:01 PM

Jeez, dude. You get up on the wrong side of the bed today or something?Rather than take issue with me personally, why not address the issues which I raise?

I can understand the fear of warranty rejection, even if it is not valid under the law in the US. Then again, BMW seems to reject valid warranty claims all the time anyway, which is but one of the many reasons why I will never buy another new bike from BMW.

BMW sells inferior parts at extra-premium prices with long delays in delivery.

There... the emporer IS naked. You wanna try to kill the messenger now or you wanna do something to fix the problem?

saab93driver

08-03-2006, 09:35 PM

My Mini's engine is made in Brazil, the transmission in Germany, some of the electronics in the US, and it is all assembled in England. Great car, BTW.

None of those countries have missles pointed at the United States. Make no mistake, the Chinese gov't is hard core communist no different than the old Soviet Union except they have MFN thanks to the US gov't.

While we are busy militarily all over the world, they are watching and waiting for the moment when we are spread too thin so they can invade Taiwan. All while we finance their activities since nobody in the US is willing to pay for everyday products made somewhere in the first world. Even the "support our troops" stickers and US flag stickers you see at the circle K are made in China!

Unless it is a necessity item where I don't have any choice I Boycott china whenever possible.

Mika

08-03-2006, 09:44 PM

At the risk of casting pearls before swine...
No one is trying to kill the messanger.

I agree with 99% of what you have said. I suggested you write something because you have credibility with experience and education. You are normally no frills and straight to the point with a bit of dry insitefull humor tossed inbetween the lines. When I see your avitar I look forward to reading your posts. Today you seem like maybe you should switch to decaf. That is all.

lokhankin

08-14-2006, 09:31 PM

Hey! China is not too far from Germany:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-1901558,00.html
just if anyone forgot what nazi did ~70 years ago...

Thanks God for free Germany now.

I do boycott "Made in China" labels too!

torags

08-14-2006, 09:49 PM

Branding is big business.

VW builds cars in Mexico (to my knowledge no "made in" labels)

The Porsche Cayenne six, is made by vw in Bratislava, Czech Repub. has an Audi engine and is labeled Porsche with a premium. Porsche programs the chip that VW installs.

5+ years ago I visited the glass blowing factory in Venice to look for Venitian glass with the bride. They were selling some China made objects as Venitian Glass. Nice but WTF.

pmdave

08-14-2006, 10:40 PM

I'm a little surprised that anyone (let alone a BMW enthusiast) still thinks that motor vehicles are "made in" a single country, or that it matters. There are machines assembled in one country, others assembled in several countries. Is my Toyota 4-Runner a Japanese vehicle, or an American vehicle? Does it matter? Does anyone care where the majority of the parts are built, or where the subassemblies are put together, or where the vehicle finally rolls of an assembly line?

BMW has been outsourcing parts and components for years, just as Boeing outsources airplane components. The trick isn't to avoid certain countries, but rather to have processes in place to ensure that the parts--wherever they are made--are all up to the designer's standards. That seems to be one area where the Germans are falling behind.

I happen to own 4 BMW motorcycles at the moment--primarily because of the enthusiast cameraderie and the infrastructure--not because I feel BMW design or German manufacturing are superior to what's available in other countries. Would a BMW assembled in Japan or China be any better or worse than a BMW assembled in Germany or Italy?

It appears that BMW AG is planning a future where the only people touching a BMW motorcycle are BMW technicians. That's the European concept that has come out of "global harmonisation". Americans are still relatively ignorant of the concept, although BMW enthusiasts are probably more in the know than owners of other brands.

It might turn out that I've bought my last new BMW motorcycle, both because I'm getting too old and worn out to ride as much as I'd like to, and because the designs BMW are coming up with are not what I'd be looking for.

However, let's note that BMW AG is not in the business of supporting a few old curmudgeons who like to keep their ancient machines running. BMW are in the business of turning a profit. If anyone doesn't like the way BMW (or any other factory) is doing business, we are free to take our business elsewhere.

I would suggest that if you are going to wrench on your own machines, you should become clever enough to find and evaluate replacement parts based on something other than packaging.

pmdave

GeneT

08-14-2006, 11:01 PM

This may come as a shock to some but big corporations, and I guess some smaller ones also contract other manufactures to make parts for them, this is usually put up for bid and has been going on for years. Detroit Diesel did this with some castings, Caterpillar had some engine blocks made in Mexico and France. Many parts for you American car most likely came from another country.

There is only a hand full of bearing companies in the country, ball & roller bearings are fairly standard world wide, simply measure your bearing and go to a bearing supply house and get what you need, chances are it says New Departure, or Federal Mogal, there are some good Itialian bearings also and they likely have the size you need.

:dance

PUDGYPAINTGUY

08-15-2006, 06:00 AM

I picked up my parts at the local BMW dealer today for my swingarm/clutch/tranny repair. I took the bearings out of the BMW bags to check....and saw the dreaded "CHINA" on the bearings! At $30 and change a piece they want to give us Chinese bearings! Have you ever seen a Chinese factory!?! Open windows, no glass, tolerances varying greatly throughout the day as the temp fluctuates in the building....and that was an aircraft parts factory I'm talking about. I know, Chinese parts are everywhere....often causing mechanical failures due to poor metalurgy, sloppy tolerances and heat treating etc. But does BMW have to go there now to stay in the black? At the price we pay for their bikes (and parts and clothes...) we should at least be getting the good solid German product that they tout! Maybe my input shaft was made in China, and that explains why it is toast at 43K miles? Arrgggg.

BMW have had manufacturing/outsource for a number of years now as do other companies. I especially love the high quality Turkish bearings and spokes that have shown themselves on certain brands...lol. They truly are a global company, just lower profile about it than Wally World...lol.

I believe the Germans do not necessarily make a finer machine than anybody else, they certainly market them better and spend far more on advertizing movies than anyone else...but hey, they are still fun to ride and they fit a taller guy better than most.

cjack

08-15-2006, 08:10 AM

Rather than take issue with me personally, why not address the issues which I raise?

I can understand the fear of warranty rejection, even if it is not valid under the law in the US. Then again, BMW seems to reject valid warranty claims all the time anyway, which is but one of the many reasons why I will never buy another new bike from BMW.

BMW sells inferior parts at extra-premium prices with long delays in delivery.

There... the emporer IS naked. You wanna try to kill the messenger now or you wanna do something to fix the problem?

I almost don't know where to start. As to parts, my dealer gets anything in the country overnight if they or the customer needs it. Some times the part is backordered, like older painted parts, /2 stuff sometimes, maybe a transmission or an ABS unit. As to price, when I see how many of so many parts they have in the warehouses in the US, the cost of inventory must be staggering. I guess when they order small quantities of older bike parts, they must incur a higher cost than when they ordered 50,000 of that part.
Depending on the customer, and the dealer, the warranty experiences I have known show BMW to be very accommodating. I have known of many out of warranty coverages. It is getting tougher now. Warranty is a huge cost for them lately.
Try the decaf.

Junkle

08-15-2006, 01:35 PM

If I were wise I wouldn't post in this thread, but here goes . . .

For those who are blaming our government I disagree. With all of the things I blame on them (almost daily) I would say that the consumer has more control over this than any government. When people start voting with their cash then things will change. As long as people just want to buy the cheapest junk they can buy jobs and manufacturing will continue to be outsourced. Business don't care how you vote or what you think, only if you spend your money on their products.

My 2 cents,

j.

dlearl476

08-15-2006, 02:37 PM

No one is trying to kill the messanger.

I agree with 99% of what you have said.

+1. The one percent I take exception to is that there are exceptions. I buy a lot of stuff from Irv Seaver (which proves Flash's points re: internet, fed-ex, discount) etc. Never have I had Irv do ANY of the things most other dealers do. I've received HOURS of phone consultation, no charge. I always get return phone calls, usually within minutes, if ever there is a problem with an order. And the last part I ordered that was unavailable in NJ, was shipped from Germany and arrived within a week with no charge to me.

But as to Flash's point, this is the OLD BMW. Doesn't happen much any more. When BMW-NA chose to pull the plug on the old Las Vegas dealer, I learned self-reliance. Now, I don't really need the new dealer except for demo rides. :thumb

lkchris

08-16-2006, 10:53 AM

We better get used to BMW parts being made in China

Yes, BMW is building whole cars in China now

cwtester

08-18-2006, 03:23 PM

air conditioning and metal parts does not equal quality

I've never worked in an air conditioned shop and held tolerances?

BMW parts made in china, hmmm

Having worked in machine shops for over thirty years and CNC machines for the last 10, I can tell you that temps do make a difference when mass production is involved. Make a part at 60 degrees in the morning and 90 degrees in the afternoon. If inspectors or the operator is not vigilant think how many parts will go out the door out of tolerance. In the case of bearings a few tenths will make a world of difference.
With all due respect climate control does make a difference,.

later

flash412

08-18-2006, 04:08 PM

Yes, BMW is building whole cars in China nowSo is Buick (http://www.gmchina.com/english/operations/shgm.htm), for almost ten years already.

lkchris

08-19-2006, 03:41 PM

So is Buick (http://www.gmchina.com/english/operations/shgm.htm), for almost ten years already.

Yes, and it's interesting because Buick is doing pretty well and there are fond cultural memories of Buicks there harking back to the 1930s.

GeneT

08-20-2006, 10:45 AM

All this talk about boycotting items made in China, just ask your congressman how much money the US government has borrowed from China............

:dance

saab93driver

08-20-2006, 02:37 PM

All this talk about boycotting items made in China, just ask your congressman how much money the US government has borrowed from China............

:dance

So when the US Gov't defaults will the Chinese seize all of Walmart's inventory or is that when the Chinese move into Taiwan and fire some ICBM's over here? Or perhaps they will close down the Panama Canal that they now control.

Boxerkuh

08-20-2006, 07:27 PM

Yes BMW is out-sourcing and has been doing so for a while. I read an article about 2 years ago in the German Magazine "Motorrad" that went through the BMW plant... It has become an assembly plant... Just look at the F line... but the same is happening all over... everything is becoming specialized... look at medicine, banking, house building... It is the way we do business now, I don't like it, but I have learned to accept it.... Not all change is good, that is why I sold my oilhead and ride an Airhead... It reminds me of the simpler times... How I do miss them... :type :drink :eat

Bob_M

08-20-2006, 08:31 PM

I missed my chance to chime in when the discussion was still on topic. My brother in law is a machinist and professional restorer (3rd in class this weekend at the Monterey Concors De Elegans). He knows steel like a potter knows clay and steel coming out of China with all the appropriate specifications does not work nor perform like English or American steel with the same specs. He builds torsion bars for Nascar and people can die if his product fails. This is a big deal.

:fight

torags

08-21-2006, 11:39 PM

Saw this on another BMW site

http://www.bmwra.org/

"New Single
OTL is hot on the trail(s) of the all-new "G650" BMW single. We say trails (plural) because our moles say there are three of them, and none is a replacement for the current three F650 thumper models. Read that again. That's right. We are talking about not one but three new singles.
Our sources say the new motor will probably come from Rotax and the bike will be built by Aprilia in Noale, Italy but that said, it will be “something completely new.” But what? OTL has its notions (see next month). Moles say the bikes will be far more dirt-biased than the current F650s (which will continue in production). A Beemer scrambler is "not out of the question.""

Rotax engine from Switzerland, built by Aprilia & branded a BMW... Hmmmm..

flash412

08-22-2006, 10:51 AM

Rotax engine from Switzerland, built by Aprilia & branded a BMW... Hmmmm..Hmmm... Rotax is Austrian.

Do you have a link to the STORY (not the generic website)?

FYI, this is nothing new. The F650 was built by Aprilia in Noale Italy using Austrian Rotax motors and badged for BMW from 1994 through 2000.

GeneT

08-22-2006, 12:15 PM

So when the US Gov't defaults will the Chinese seize all of Walmart's inventory or is that when the Chinese move into Taiwan and fire some ICBM's over here? Or perhaps they will close down the Panama Canal that they now control.

Well Sabb Driver, your guess here is as good as mine, but when that happens you can get an egg roll and a bowl of rice from the drive through at McDonalds.

I take it you drive a Sabb???

:dance

torags

08-22-2006, 02:19 PM

Hmmm... Rotax is Austrian.

Do you have a link to the STORY (not the generic website)?

FYI, this is nothing new. The F650 was built by Aprilia in Noale Italy using Austrian Rotax motors and badged for BMW from 1994 through 2000.

Don't have the story link. My point was that German Manufacturers (autos too) have gone beyond outsourcing. Where one buys componants and assembled them in the factory of the marque.

Now they simply put a label on the product and get a premium for the badge.

Things are different today

flash412

08-22-2006, 03:30 PM

My point was that German Manufacturers (autos too) have gone beyond outsourcing.That's old news. BMW has had a car plant in South Carolina pooting out cars for about twenty years. That expensive "German" automobile in your driveway or your neighbor's driveway just may have been built by the UAW.

torags

08-22-2006, 06:51 PM

That's old news. BMW has had a car plant in South Carolina pooting out cars for about twenty years. That expensive "German" automobile in your driveway or your neighbor's driveway just may have been built by the UAW.

That's true. But the manufacture is supervised by german employees and engineering. Re Dr Z.

I think badge premiums are dishonest, but not necessarily bad.

Porsche is the oldest outsourcing 'Ho. My '52 speedster (in 58) had VW carbs, fuel pump brakes, etc. The block was Pcar spec'ed, bored out to 1100cc. Mr P had a close relationship with VW after the war. He was assembling cars in Austria in a small garage.

My current SUV CayeeneS, manufactured in Bratslavia in a VW factory (that also manufactures Toureg & Audi Suv), shipped to Leipzip for engine install. I paid a premium over the Toureg for the Pcar dealer network, and I'm pleased I did and that's why I think it's nort bad - but it begs for more disclosure...

dlearl476

08-22-2006, 08:55 PM

He knows steel like a potter knows clay and steel coming out of China with all the appropriate specifications does not work nor perform like English or American steel with the same specs. :fight

By the same token, American and British steel was crap compared to German steel. IMHO, metalurgy is the single most important factor in "the legendary motorcycles of Germany". Back when they were, anyway.

Mr P had a close relationship with VW after the war. He was assembling cars in Austria in a small garage.

Well, I guess he would, since he was the designer. And the bits he got were in partial payment for his design license. This is discussed in a lot of books on Porsche.
In a way, Porsche was the inventor of this style of production. Yet another area that they were years ahead of any other manufacturer. AFAIK, other than the racing cars, the original 911 was the only "100%" Porsche, even then I believe they had ZF transmissions.

torags

08-22-2006, 09:12 PM

"By the same token, American and British steel was crap compared to German steel. IMHO, metalurgy is the single most important factor in "the legendary motorcycles of Germany". Back when they were, anyway."

The German Company Kolbscmidt (I think) has the best metallurgy in the world, they supply pcars (PAG) as well as others. But PAG has three blocks of different aluminum design in current production. Their 911 Turbo chambers are Nikkosil lined, other 911 blocks are alusil with silicone laced liners and the SUV chambers are alusil with silicone thru out the block (no liners).

BMW moto uses nikkosil lined chambers, thats why they're such a pain to break in.

Sorry for the off topic tangent..., but the germans still lead in metallugy...

(I am not German and have no commercial interest in any of the subject matter.... there, that should cover me...)

saab93driver

08-22-2006, 11:14 PM

Well Sabb Driver, your guess here is as good as mine, but when that happens you can get an egg roll and a bowl of rice from the drive through at McDonalds.

I take it you drive a Sabb???

:dance

Just don't stand in front of the tanks - the communists are serious when they say "move!"

And yes, I happily drive a SAAB (not a Sabb) when I'm not on my BMW :thumb

PUDGYPAINTGUY

08-22-2006, 11:40 PM

Just don't stand in front of the tanks - the communists are serious when they say "move!"

And yes, I happily drive a SAAB (not a Sabb) when I'm not on my BMW :thumb

And if you rode a Royal Enfield made in India you could ride a Sahib...lol

The_Veg

08-24-2006, 01:37 PM

DA-DUM-CRASSSSHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

You funny guy PPG!

saab93driver

08-24-2006, 07:59 PM

And if you rode a Royal Enfield made in India you could ride a Sahib...lol

I'll be pushing up daisies b4 that day arrives. I've been to India on business in 2003. No thanks on the RE.

kybeamer

08-29-2006, 08:13 PM

Excuse me for asking, but there seems to be an awful lot of folks on here defending the outsourcing of everyting to China. Isnt China still a communist country? And if so how come everyone in our country is so willing to do business with the enemy? I take it communism is still our enemy.Or is that only when it is convenient? I say if we are going to outsource, good lord, at least do so with a country that is friendly to the U.S.A.! Or one we have already whipped their butts! i.e. Germany,Japan etc.

flash412

08-29-2006, 10:02 PM

...how come everyone in our country is so willing to do business with the enemy? I take it communism is still our enemy.Was a war declared on either China or an ideology when the rest of us weren't looking? If not, then neither one is "the enemy."

torags

08-29-2006, 10:41 PM

Was a war declared on either China or an ideology when the rest of us weren't looking? If not, then neither one is "the enemy."

Furthermore, if they were - then we are supporting them buying sweaters, clothing, door knobs

and they could be treasonable offenses. Hell we can't go to Cuba and didn't we direct an attack against them?

Easy

08-30-2006, 07:04 AM

It's easy to see how some folks can think we are at war with China: the relations we had with Chiang Kai-chek, Mao, our current relations with our friends on Taiwan, the number of Americans that lost their jobs to Chinese outsourcing (whether our govt. cares or not), the number of Americans that were killed by Chinese in the Korean Conflict (as they call it in the U.N.), what our troops went through at Chosen Reservoir, their almost every day obstacles in the U.N., the list goes on and on. I'm not saying all their parts are inferior, but you have to admit, their industry is still emerging. While our economies are tied, our governments are not exactly in bed with each other.

These are complex times and such are our relations with China. Perhaps some day I'll buy a Chinese ball bearing with the same ease I bought my last Honda, but it will take a while. That's not to say I don't buy Chinese products, of course I do. But I treat each product differenlty.

I can also see how some folks would be cautious about a Chinese ball bearing. Have you read about Chinese cars? Even Business Week has reservations about the Chinese car. http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/may2005/nf20050526_0195_db016.htm

Easy
Big Empty, Texas
It is in vain to expect our prayers to be heard, if we do not strive as well as pray.
Aesop (620 BC-560 BC)

soffiler

08-30-2006, 09:46 AM

Reality check.

1) globalized logistics
2) globalized information
3) Chinese industrialization

First of all, we can move "things" around the WORLD relatively efficiently and quickly. Second of all, the Internet and cell phones have revolutionized the way we communicate (move "information") globally. Third, the average Chinese citizen has figured out he/she'd rather live in a dorm and work a factory job than toil in the rice paddies. Unless the governments (ours, theirs) are interfering, just go ahead and leave them out of the equation. So it's not really complex at all. It's very easy to understand why we find ourselves in the position we are in here in the USA.

"Buy American" (or German if you prefer, considering the forum we're posting in) is nothing but an individual's feel-good strategy that has not a snowball's chance in Hell of changing the status quo. Most conclude that if you can't beat them, join them. Outsourcing and loss of US jobs does result. That's the way it is. Until we do declare war (economically via tariffs or sanctions or other forms of trade control) or militarily, nothing's going to change.

Easy

08-30-2006, 10:28 AM

I agree with much of what you said, but we have a very complex relationship with China. If you don't believe me, ask the Americans that try to open a business there. Harley went through hell to get a shop there. Nor do I think we should buy Chinese ball bearings because ..." That's the way it is." That was the philosophy of Herbert Clark Hoover and "Silent Cal".

I do agree with you about buying American. You should look at all the products and make an intelligent choice before deciding.

Easy
Big Empty, Texas :german
A lifetime of happiness! No man alive could bear it; it would be hell on earth.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 1950)

soffiler

08-30-2006, 11:57 AM

I agree with much of what you said, but we have a very complex relationship with China. If you don't believe me, ask the Americans that try to open a business there. Harley went through hell to get a shop there...

I don't know the Harley story, but I do know that there are ways of getting business done in China. Trying to set up a US-owned business located in China is probaby a nightmare. Better to form partnerships with existing Chinese businesses.

... Nor do I think we should buy Chinese ball bearings because ..." That's the way it is."

I didn't say that. What I was trying to say was that ignoring the status quo is not going to change it. If Chinese ball bearings start hitting these shores with appropriate metallurgy and tolerances, then there is no reason (other than those flag-waving reasons) not to buy them. I never meant to say you should just blindly by the Chinese stuff because "that's the way it is".

I do agree with you about buying American. You should look at all the products and make an intelligent choice before deciding.

I look at labels all the time, despite what I know about FTC labelling rules and the way they are blatantly flaunted. I like to buy American. That's how I know so well that it's nothing more than a feel-good strategy!

CTHalk

08-30-2006, 05:24 PM

Well, I still say (and feel) that I bought a BMW because of the supposed superior design, manufacture, and support. So now that my superior tranny is dead at 43K miles, I'll replace it..at my own cost. Why did it fail? Mis-aligned shaft and clutch disc. Something is 'off' enough that the two parts 'fought' each other to the point of destruction. There is NO excuse for a high-end, high-dollar motorcycle to do this (as many have). SOMEWHERE a problem in manufacturing happened. Where? In Germany? Or Beijing? While I'm replacing the tranny, I'll do the swingarm bearings. I am still in shock from seeing 'BMW-High' prices on a BMW labelled bag containing a Chinese bearing! Why do I distrust/dislike Chinese manufacturing? Well, it could be their slave-labor practices. It could be their rampant, widespread disregard for the environment (google the percentage of Chinese rivers that do not support fish life). It could be their practice of making and selling bootleg aviation grade hardware (that may very well be in a plane YOU will ride in). It may be because they have entire towns and cities making bootleg copies of goods, which are sold at a strong discount thus undermining businesses everywhere. It may be because of their human rights violations, or their genuine hatred of the American way of life (even though 'capitalism' is making them rich). When you visit China, you are given a guide that makes sure you do not see what you shouldn't see. An example: On a visit to a temple, there was a raggedy looking man selling incense outside the temple gates. After a tour of the temple, our friends' son headed for the gate to buy some incense. the guide emphatically said, 'no, don't go there. You can buy incense in the temple store. do not go out there!' Our friends' son is headstrong, and ignored the guide. He started to walk down to the gates. The guide followed him all the way outside the gates with the van, and all the way back in. Why was nobody supposed to go outside 'approved areas?' It may have been the man's deformed child, who had a large mis-shapen head with only one eye...only one place for an eye. The man said there were many children with deformities in his village, because of the pollution in the air and water. Not 'politically-correct' news for foreign visiters. How about the huge number of chinese babies that are killed every year because of the government mandated cap on the number of children a family can have (the one child per family rule)? This rule has caused a disdain for female infants; abortion, neglect, abandonment, and even infanticide have been known to occur to female infants. I could go on and on about the reasons why I don't want to financially support communist Chinese policies. I have Chinese American friends that are really good friends. It isn't racism. Just the fact that I don't want to worry about a possible sub-standard Chinese part failing in my expensive German motorcycle is reason enough to be irritated with BMW's choice to sell Chinese parts in the coveted BMW bag. Wow, I went off on that post. Before anybody starts rationalizing why it's OK to buy Chinese, I strongly suggest they actually research Chinese policies on important big issues. You will not like what you see. China does not care about playing by American or European rules, does not care about our environment, our social and moral viewpoints, or our welfare. As long as we/you spend dollars on Chinese goods, they will continue to do what they have been doing. And if they continue, it WILL impact us strongly in a negative way in the future. How soon? Hmmm...

flash412

08-30-2006, 10:14 PM

I dunno about all that. During the past ten years or so, I've been to Beijing, Chengdu, Qingdao, Xiamen, Shanghai and Suzhou (several times), Hong Kong and Shenzhen (many times), plus Taiwan (more times than I care to recall), as well as many trips to South Korea and Japan, and one to Malaysia and two to Singapore. Frankly, what I see is people who are willing to WORK to make a living. China is not all that different from the rest of Asia.

I've seen that the Chinese are aware of many issues and beginning to address them, sorta like the USA back in the late 50's and 60's. Just because we have made progress, don't fault them for not being where we are. We ain't done. Neither are they. I remember the air in the USA being filthy with coal smoke in the winter.

Unions in the USA made me sick WAY before I visited China. I could tell stories about crap that union workers subjected me to while I was a non-union worker with the misfortune to have to interface with them at a Ford plant and in a hospital in Kentucky. Union workers deserve to lose their jobs overseas to people who are willing to actually WORK for a living. Trade unions have outlived their usefulness.

The sun set on the British Empire early in the last century. Better face it, the sun is setting on "the American Century" as we type.

Tell your kids to learn Mandarin. That and a degree in pretty much anything else will assure that they'll be able to earn a good living.

If nothing else, let's be democratic about this, everybody gets ONE vote. Whatever the issue, a BILLION Chinese WIN. Think about it... there are more Chinese that speak at least some English than there are Americans who speak English. Get with the program. You're WAAAY outnumbered.

kybeamer

08-30-2006, 10:19 PM

I applaude you CTHalk, I am glad to live in a country where we can agree, or disagree publicly. I still think it is odd that the word "communism" seems to have disappeared from our governments vocabulary in the last few years. Yesterdays enemy, (communism). todays corporate dividends maybe?

soffiler

08-31-2006, 07:32 AM

... Why do I distrust/dislike Chinese manufacturing? Well, it could be their slave-labor practices...

I can't say that slave-labor does not exist, but I can tell you that the typical Chinese factory today consists of a campus with manufacturing and dormitory buildings. The workers are provided with food and housing in addition to some wages. Most find the wages sufficient to send some home to their families still living in the boondocks and subsistence-farming.

... It could be their rampant, widespread disregard for the environment

This appears to be a very serious problem.

... It could be their practice of making and selling bootleg aviation grade hardware (that may very well be in a plane YOU will ride in). It may be because they have entire towns and cities making bootleg copies of goods, which are sold at a strong discount thus undermining businesses everywhere.

Here, you need to understand that they'll make pretty much whatever they can sell. The only way to control this is DON'T BUY IT. What I am saying here is that it is incumbent upon the distributors who put first-world brand names onto packaging that contains Chinese goods to perform the quality control.

...It may be because of their human rights violations, or their genuine hatred of the American way of life (even though 'capitalism' is making them rich).

Where does THAT come from? Care to elaborate?

......Just the fact that I don't want to worry about a possible sub-standard Chinese part failing in my expensive German motorcycle is reason enough to be irritated with BMW's choice to sell Chinese parts in the coveted BMW bag...

Agree completely with you on that point.

Easy

08-31-2006, 07:41 AM

Interesting thought.

Easy
Big Empty, Texas :german

Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.
Will Rogers (1879-1935)

torags

08-31-2006, 09:10 AM