crosswinds

[ultracyclist]

What is the correct technique for riding in crosswinds with big gusts (gusts of 35mph and higher)?

I was leaning into the gusts, then releasing the lean as the gust subsided.
I was beginning to feel like a pin-ball.

Would an "R-RT" handle better in gusts than an "R-R"?

Howard

[The_Veg]

My guess is that the RT would be worse, since it presents a larger side-area and has a lot more bodywork which becomes a big sail.
As far as I'm concerned, the 'right' way to ride in gusty crosswind is whatever way keeps you safe and on-course with a large emphasis on SAFE. If that means parking for a while, so be it.

[Motorman]

I have an RT and have had large fairing bikes (Windjammer) when I had airheads. I just leaned into the wind to maintain my track. then straightened up to vertical after it passed. Don't try to change lanes or anything, just maintain your track. Learn to feel the bike don't just react to things.

[BradfordBenn]

I put my knee into the crosswind, it seems to work to keep the bike going straight. Seems to work pretty well so far.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Just as the wind keeps gusting and changing so will you be adjusting your tack in the wind too. Last year I had the opportunity to practice this for almost a day and a half and found that it was a matter of continual and gradual adjustment, feeling how the wind is affecting the bike and gently countering it.

In my honest opinion if you can, slow down and get the feel for the adjustments. In a few weeks you will have more techniques to add to the few mentioned above too. Just be gentle and try not to do any knee-jerk reactions as they bite you if the wind suddenly drops....lol.

[bubbagazoo]

Like Motorman, I ride an RT and he is most definitely bang on -- ya gotta know the FEEL of your bike. The large sail on an RT will catch more wind than an bike with less sail area but you can be blown around pretty bad on a smaller bike as well. I clearly remember a ride from Red Deer to Edmonton on my Yamaha XS650 21 years ago where I had that little (compared to an RT) bike leaned 45 degrees into the wind for 90 miles. That bike was about 200 pounds lighter than the RT that I ride now.

If you are trying to decide on which bike to buy, compare the two that you are interested in with each other AND the kind of riding you plan on doing. Getting a bike because it handles a certain way in one set of riding conditions is not a good idea if it doesn't do the other things you want it to do.

Just my 2 cents (CDN) worth. :brow

[JCBR1150R]

Keep your head down and gas it. :) I did the 25 to 45 mph crosswind motorcycle ride thing one time in between San Fran and LA and it was scary and stuff considering my KZ550 was fully loaded but I just avoided all of the swerving big rigs and made it okay. Minimizing my profile helped some.

[dancogan]

Another alternative is to leave the interstates or high speed roads and find a slower, safer route to use when the wind is howling. I left Port Huron one day during a high wind warning and after about 30 minutes on I-69, I realized that I didn't feel safe. Taking secondary roads at 55-60 mph felt substantially more secure.

[flash412]

I put my knee into the crosswind, it seems to work to keep the bike going straight. Seems to work pretty well so far.I live in northern Colorado, up near Wyoming. We have barriers across interstates and major highways that they close when it gets TOO windy. I have lots of opportunities to try the technique. It works. You don't need a heavier bike. I ride an F650.

Bradford, I pioneered that idea about 30 years ago. Most of the people who do try it find that it works pretty well, no matter what sort of bike they ride. Meanwhile, I find it curious that many people are unwilling to even consider it, let alone try it. Heck, it is free. What have they got to lose?

[Braddog]

I live in northern Colorado, up near Wyoming. We have barriers across interstates and major highways that they close when it gets TOO windy. I have lots of opportunities to try the technique. It works. You don't need a heavier bike. I ride an F650.

Bradford, I pioneered that idea about 30 years ago. Most of the people who do try it find that it works pretty well, no matter what sort of bike they ride. Meanwhile, I find it curious that many people are unwilling to even consder it, let alone try it. Heck, it is free. What have they got to lose?

But you better believe I'll give it a try the next time I'm riding in a crosswind!

[kbasa]

We know a thing or two about crosswinds here in the Bay Area. I'm a big proponent of the knee out technique.

Equally important is staying relaxed on the bike. If you tense up, it seems to make it worse.

[snoone]

I put my knee into the crosswind, it seems to work to keep the bike going straight. Seems to work pretty well so far.

What does put your knee into the crosswind mean? I certainly will give it a shot the next time its screaming 40 mph gusts on the GW or Tappan Zee Bridges. It gets scary.

[PacWestGS]

What does put your knee into the crosswind mean? I certainly will give it a shot the next time its screaming 40 mph gusts on the GW or Tappan Zee Bridges. It gets scary.

In a 'sailors' sense of wind control, having your knee out scooping up air would create it's own high-pressure system (like a sail) along the side of the bike. Therefore pushing the lower velocity (natural) crosswind and gusts over and around the high-pressure zone you have created on one side of the bike.

If you remove this high-pressure zone then you become the sail area again in a lower pressure zone, the natrual winds can exert their power on the mass. The more mass (big windscreens, top boxes, luggage, two-up) the more effect the wind has. Moto-GP racers are doing it for another reason, besides setting up their body position, they use as an 'air-brake' along with their chest and head to slow down.

Or think of it like an airplane wing, the top-curve creates a low-pressure area which lifts the plane and the bottom of the wing creates a high-pressure area which can be controlled to allow the plane to fly slower and still remain lighter than air even though it weighs tons. (I'm reaching here, because I'm NOT an areonautical engineer, but just trying to provide a different view).

Did that explain it at least in theory?

The other half of the solution is constant and persistent counter-steering (light slow to hard fast corrections on the handlebars) to remain in a straight line. The wind gusts are trying to 'lean' you into a turn you do not want to make and by counter-steering into it the bike remains straight even though the mechanics of a motorcycle says it should be turning.

Pay attention and 'think' about everything you just did (per-second) the next time you approach and arrive at the back of an 18-wheeler and again as you get to the front of it and depart back into clean air. The back is a negative pressure zone and the front is positive. You don't have to wait for windy day, go find your own on the highway and practice.

Edit: As a safety message, be extra carefull when passing trucks and RVs while actually riding in a severe crosswind. The effects of the negative and positive forces mentioned above are multiplied by the corsswind and gusts. Approach the rear from the far side of the lane and expect to get sucked (or turn into) the side of the rig and approach the front of the vehicle in the near portion of the lane expecting to get pushed wide until you regain control.

[snoone]

In a 'sailors' sense of wind control, having your knee out scooping up air would create it's own high-pressure system (like a sail) along the side of the bike. Therefore pushing the lower velocity (natural) crosswind and gusts over and around the high-pressure zone you have created on one side of the bikie.

If you remove this high-pressure zone then you become the sail area again in a lower pressure zone, the natrual winds can exert their power on the mass. The more mass (big windscreens, top boxes, luggage, two-up) the more effect the wind has. Moto-GP racers are doing it for another reason, besides setting up their body position, they use as an 'air-brake' along with their chest and head to slow down.

Or think of it like an airplane wing, the top-curve creates a low-pressure area which lifts the plane and the bottom of the wing creates a high-pressure area which can be controlled to allow the plane to fly slower and still remain lighter than air even though it weighs tons. (I'm reaching here, because I'm an areonautical engineer, but just trying to provide a different view).

Did that explain it at least in theory?

The other half of the solution is constant and persistent counter-steering (light slow to hard fast corrections on the handlebars) to remain in a straight line. The wind gusts are trying to 'lean' you into a turn you do not want to make and by counter-steering into it the bike remains straight even though the mechanics of a motorcycle says it should be turning.

Pay attention and 'think' about everything you just did (per-second) the next time you approach and arrive at the back of an 18-wheeler and again as

you get to the front of it and depart back into clean air. The back is a negative pressure zone and the front is positive. You don't have to wait for windy day, go find your own on the highway and practice.

Thanks for the explaination. It's perfectly clear. Time for some experimentation.

[username]

In a 'sailors' sense of wind control, having your knee out scooping up air would create it's own high-pressure system (like a sail) along the side of the bike. Therefore pushing the lower velocity (natural) crosswind and gusts over and around the high-pressure zone you have created on one side of the bike.

i dont think this is correct. this zone of high pressure that is created in front of your leg is very small, and does not extend very far outward. it might be an inch from your leg. also, there is a commensurate low pressure that is created BEHIND your leg when you do this, and that would suck the wind up behind your leg at HIGHER speeds. so if there was big enough force to create some sort of weird fairing to protect you from the crosswind (i think you'd have to compress the flow quite a bit, and would end up with a shockwave) and to cause flow around the bike from the side, then there would also be enough low pressure created to put one heck of a moment on the bike about the z-axis. i think you'd go into a spin, a very loud one. bottom line, this is not an accurate description of the physics of sticking your leg out. fortunately, it's much simpler, and i think you got it right later in your post.

If you remove this high-pressure zone then you become the sail area again in a lower pressure zone, the natrual winds can exert their power on the mass. The more mass (big windscreens, top boxes, luggage, two-up) the more effect the wind has. Moto-GP racers are doing it for another reason, besides setting up their body position, they use as an 'air-brake' along with their chest and head to slow down.

to pick a nit, the surface area, not the mass, determines the amount of force the wind can exert upon you. in particular, it's the amount of area facing the wind (the projection of the surface on a two-dimensional plane.) a good way to think about this is if you took a photograph of yourself on your bike, enlarged it to be lifesize, and then cut around the edges so that all you saw was the bike and your body. measure the amount of area that is, and you know your projection in the plane. the other component of drag is skin friction, and this is a function of the total surface area that has fluid (air) flowing over it. think of a sphere with the flow going over it. it's projection looks like a circle, but it has a lot of flow over its surface.

the sailboat is an interesting analogy, because if you assume that the wheels do not slip, they function as a keel. so if you could shape your body correctly, like a sail, you could use that cross wind to push yourself forward a little.

the lanes would need to be a little wider to give us room to tack and gibe. ;)

and i won't go into how hard it'd be to keep the sails full due to the drag on them from traveling at 60 mph. it takes all the fun out of the mental picture you can create.

Or think of it like an airplane wing, the top-curve creates a low-pressure area which lifts the plane and the bottom of the wing creates a high-pressure area which can be controlled to allow the plane to fly slower and still remain lighter than air even though it weighs tons. (I'm reaching here, because I'm NOT an areonautical engineer, but just trying to provide a different view).

i can't think of a more gentle way to put this - the different view is simply incorrect. as a person with a little experience with science, i like to clean up all the "different views" i see in these times. :) (creationists, take note!)

also, and i'm being really nit-picky here, planes do not fly because of the high pressure generated under the wing, but instead because of the pressure differential between the top and bottom. i don't want people to get confused and think that an inclined plate is a good wing design, and that a good analgoy is taking a small piece of wood, and blasting it from below with a hose, and that's how flying works. maybe everyone already knows airfloil theory, but i want to make sure i'm clear on this. i think you explained it correctly, but left room for confusion when discussing modifying the bottom surface to allow it to fly at low speeds. in fact, the shape of the entire airfoil is modifed which generates more lift (and more drag) at a lower overall airspeed for the same amount of enginer thurst. at some point the angle of attack increases while landing (this is very pronounced if you go land a cessna with a stall alarm) and as you nose up, the wing loses it's lift force. this is because the air can't bend itself around the top edge of the wing, and it separates. down you go.

The other half of the solution is constant and persistent counter-steering (light slow to hard fast corrections on the handlebars) to remain in a straight line. The wind gusts are trying to 'lean' you into a turn you do not want to make and by counter-steering into it the bike remains straight even though the mechanics of a motorcycle says it should be turning.

Pay attention and 'think' about everything you just did (per-second) the next time you approach and arrive at the back of an 18-wheeler and again as you get to the front of it and depart back into clean air. The back is a negative pressure zone and the front is positive. You don't have to wait for windy day, go find your own on the highway and practice.


i believe this explanation is not half the answer, but all of it. i think what is going on is that by hanging that leg off the bike, you are shifting the center of mass. it puts the bike into a very slight lean, and that lean is countered by the force of the wind. for a given rider, on a given bike, at a given speed it is likely that there is a specific amount of their leg to hang off for a given crosswind.

like anything in life, the steady state example is easy to adapt to. it's when you're in really swirly (note that i did not say turbulent) winds that it becomes tricky. and as you rightly pointed out, passing alongside vehicles, be they cars or trucks, is tricky in very high winds that end up being blocked by the vehicle.

i hope some of this makes sense, and i don't come off as a professorial prick. (i'm not really professorial. :D )

[tessler]

i dont think this is correct. this zone of high pressure that is created in front of your leg is very small, and does not extend very far outward. it might be an inch from your leg

. . .

i hope some of this makes sense, and i don't come off as a professorial prick. (i'm not really professorial. :D ) :lurk

What does put your knee into the crosswind mean? I certainly will give it a shot the next time its screaming 40 mph gusts on the GW or Tappan Zee Bridges. It gets scary.My first experience with pretty raucous crosswinds was this past weekend (going over the Henry Hudson Bridge). Somehow, without being conscious of it, I tried the knee out thing and it felt alright.

[snoone]

:lurk

My first experience with pretty raucous crosswinds was this past weekend (going over the Henry Hudson Bridge). Somehow, without being conscious of it, I tried the knee out thing and it felt alright.

The wind that comes screaming up the Hudson river is something at times.

[PacWestGS]

:p :p :p I was just trying to KISs whether my descriptions or details went far enough, a lot of science professors would find that (X*W) / (W+V-D) * TF-Y = B. And therefore my assertion that A was the correct answer is wrong… Heheheha :laugh

The only part of the leg out theory and positive pressure needs to adequately dissipate are the effects of the crosswind on the S-axis (or Steering Head) thereby reducing the number and use of inputs to the controls to remain in a relatively straight line of travel. You will still need to control for gusts of wind but less often, because the effects would also be diminished because you have neutralized the effects of the constant. What goes on behind your knee is of less importance to the geometry of how motorcycles turn. I don’t think it has anything to do with making you ‘lean’ over into the wind, which is an effect of steering the motorcycle into a constant turn which is going straight. How much wind you are countering will determine the lean, to the point of dragging foot-pegs and floor boards. At which point it would be prudent to stop and wait for better conditions.

The total 'surface area' of your motorcycle and it's loaded configuartion will determine how much wind you can ride in. Thus allowing a smaller more compact profile of bike and rider to ride in a greater wind than a touring bike.

If in fact this theory held a once of water, a forward movement of 60 mph with both legs safely tucked into the sides of the motorcycle would create no effects on what the effects of a 20 mph side wind; which would be exerting constant force on the steering dynamics of the accordion we sit upon. However by rotating your up-wind leg out you create not only drag but a pressure differential where it is needed most, on the steering axis. If all this remained the same and you were trying to go 60 mph in a 60 mph crosswind, I don’t think the leg out proposal would do much more than hit the ground first, last, or somewhere in between being upright and crashing. It only takes a 40-mph gust to topple an 18-wheeler (Depending on a lot of things).

I was leading slowly into the argument about ‘Counter-Steering’ because it somehow always becomes an argument amongst the people who do, which is everybody, and those who don’t know they do but still are, only subconsciously doing it. Riding in a crosswind or intermittent gusts, whether created by other vehicles or Mother Nature requires the proper and applied {constant or intermittent} use of counter-steer {gently and slow or hard and fast} to keep the motorcycle pointed in a straight line or to execute a turn to the limits of available traction and ground clearance.

A good strong wind coming up a valley could in fact produce such a positive effect that no amount of counter-steer or ‘lean’ could induce the desired turn or lean-angle and the bike and rider will not make the corner and crash or low-side trying (I guess that would be where the rudder passes the keel). The opposite could be true and the amount of push could create what started to be a well timed and executed turn ‘say to the left’ to go farther than the rider can correct and the bike will cross the center line, hopefully no one is in the way.

Thank you for correcting the term Mass vs Surface, I can see where that might have misled some. (I AM JUST PICKING ON YOU, really thanks for the discussion now everyone can make up there own mind about what’s going on. And if that was still hard to follow, just read page 191 in David Hough’s Proficient Motorcycling).

And as far as the wing thing goes, I believe I said the shape of the top of the wing creates lift I didn’t go far enough to say the controllable trailing edge (flaps) creates more lift. :nyah (I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night and thought I knew everything about Air-Foil design, sailing and motorcycles)

:stick :stick :stick :stick :stick :stick :stick :stick :stick :stick :stick


But then I woke up and found that I was still sitting at home with my wife standing by the back door saying come let's go... :bolt

All good fun, I hope had by all... :lol

[JPK1100]

I really like this thread. It is a subject we do not hear about often.

For me, crosswinds are the most difficult riding experiences I meet. I do not fear bad drivers, rain, heat, cold, etc. as much as I fear crosswinds.

And I ride a K1100LT, usually two up, a bike “high on heels” (oops… tires).

Last year, riding in Ontario, we encountered heavy winds on the 401 (four lanes). We did as someone recommended: we took an exit and rode on secondary roads, only to realise that you do meet trucks and vans on those secondary road (with big bangs, etc.). So, I came back on the highway.

So, it always depends on the road conditions, the angle of the winds, etc.

I did realise sometime that the wind (when it’s steady) has less effect if you ride a little faster. Or, which sounds silly by itself, if the gas tank is full. But don't as me why.

So please, continue to share your experiences. I’m taking notes.

JP K1100 somewhere in Canada

[BradfordBenn]

I don't know why it works, I just know it works. My idea is that I am applying more drag on the side that is being pushed on so the bike leans that way. So if the wind is coming from the left, I point my knee out from the bike to the left as close to perpindicular as I can.

[torags]

I don't know why it works, I just know it works. My idea is that I am applying more drag on the side that is being pushed on so the bike leans that way. So if the wind is coming from the left, I point my knee out from the bike to the left as close to perpindicular as I can.

Maybe you create a foil to divert the wind into upward moments, that lessens the side push.

[flash412]

I figger it works like this... you're leg is sticking out on the upwind side. You have to alter your steering and/or lean a bit to account for that force. When a gust hits the upwind side, there is a tendency for that breeze to blow you downwind. Only, with your knee upwind, you are "scouping up" some of the wind force with your knee, which drives you upwind rather than downwind. Anyway, that's how it FEELS to me like it works.

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." - Flash Gordon, M.D.

[username]

:p :p :p I was just trying to KISs whether my descriptions or details went far enough, a lot of science professors would find that (X*W) / (W+V-D) * TF-Y = B. And therefore my assertion that A was the correct answer is wrong… Heheheha :laugh

i hear ya. we live in times where science is often dismissed as too complicated or not well understood, and therefore possibly wrong. this drives me crazy. :D

The only part of the leg out theory and positive pressure needs to adequately dissipate are the effects of the crosswind on the S-axis (or Steering Head) thereby reducing the number and use of inputs to the controls to remain in a relatively straight line of travel. You will still need to control for gusts of wind but less often, because the effects would also be diminished because you have neutralized the effects of the constant. What goes on behind your knee is of less importance to the geometry of how motorcycles turn. I don’t think it has anything to do with making you ‘lean’ over into the wind, which is an effect of steering the motorcycle into a constant turn which is going straight. How much wind you are countering will determine the lean, to the point of dragging foot-pegs and floor boards. At which point it would be prudent to stop and wait for better conditions.

:laugh you sort fo argue against yourself. by putting your leg out, you increase the number of inputs, as prior to that, your leg wasn't out. so the angle at which you stick your leg out becomes another input.

the center of mass does shift, and does effect a turn. it is slight, because the mass of the bike is large. you don't have to listen to me though - go get on a bicycle, and get going in a straight line. point your right leg out to the right - make your knee stick out. the bicycle will turn to the right. i cruise around the city like this all the time and i can make pretty quick turns this way.

i think we all agree that sticking your knee out in a direction pulls the bike in that direction. the question is why, and if we understand why, we can perhaps improve the way we do it.

The total 'surface area' of your motorcycle and it's loaded configuartion will determine how much wind you can ride in. Thus allowing a smaller more compact profile of bike and rider to ride in a greater wind than a touring bike.

actually, no. form drag, that is the amount of drag created by the projection of the body normal to the flow, dominates. keep in mind, you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with bernoulli, reynolds, and a host of lesser fluids folks who have done things like design airplanes and submarines, both of which have designs which minimize form drag, but area large, and along, and thus have a lot of surface area that creates the lesser skin friction forces.

If in fact this theory held a once of water, a forward movement of 60 mph with both legs safely tucked into the sides of the motorcycle would create no effects on what the effects of a 20 mph side wind; which would be exerting constant force on the steering dynamics of the accordion we sit upon. However by rotating your up-wind leg out you create not only drag but a pressure differential where it is needed most, on the steering axis. If all this remained the same and you were trying to go 60 mph in a 60 mph crosswind, I don’t think the leg out proposal would do much more than hit the ground first, last, or somewhere in between being upright and crashing. It only takes a 40-mph gust to topple an 18-wheeler (Depending on a lot of things).

i need you to spend some more time explaining the "pressure differential on the steering axis." perhaps a diagram? i don't understand what you're talking about here.

regardless, go do the bicycle experiment. do it below 17mph, when drag is not an issue, and watch the bicycle turn.

i did a little arithmetic to check and see how much force is generated by sticking your knee out into a 60 mph (26.8 m/sec) wind. i assumed a naked bike, which is generous, and i used my leg to measure the surface area. (i'm a 6', normal-sized guy.) i figured that in the best case, about 1 ft^2 (0.093m^2) extends into the free stream alongside the bike. in that case, and assuming that my leg is a perfectly flat surface, it generates 9.24 pounds (41.1N) of force. depending on where the centroid of the bike/rider is, that force generates some moment about the centroid.

in a more realistic case, where about half that leg area is in the free stream, the force is obviously cut in half.

a simple way to test this theory is for someone with a faired bike and a naked bike to go out and ride both bikes, stick the knee out the same distance, and see if the turning of the bike changes at all.

i'm going to maintain that it isnt the drag force of the knee in the wind, that it's the shifting of the center of mass of the rider relative to the bike's.

all this talk about the leg causing some sort of pressure bubble about the rider that deflects wind needs to stop - that's goofy. if that were true, i could reduce the drag on my bike by sitting sideways on the seat and extending my knee in front of the bike. i'd create a magic bubble and the bike would see no drag. silly.

I was leading slowly into the argument about ‘Counter-Steering’ because it somehow always becomes an argument amongst the people who do, which is everybody, and those who don’t know they do but still are, only subconsciously doing it. Riding in a crosswind or intermittent gusts, whether created by other vehicles or Mother Nature requires the proper and applied {constant or intermittent} use of counter-steer {gently and slow or hard and fast} to keep the motorcycle pointed in a straight line or to execute a turn to the limits of available traction and ground clearance.

i agree that everyone countersteers, and not everyone realizes it. the more you study physics, the more you realize (with awe) how much your body does without you realizing it. :D

A good strong wind coming up a valley could in fact produce such a positive effect that no amount of counter-steer or ‘lean’ could induce the desired turn or lean-angle and the bike and rider will not make the corner and crash or low-side trying (I guess that would be where the rudder passes the keel). The opposite could be true and the amount of push could create what started to be a well timed and executed turn ‘say to the left’ to go farther than the rider can correct and the bike will cross the center line, hopefully no one is in the way.

Thank you for correcting the term Mass vs Surface, I can see where that might have misled some. (I AM JUST PICKING ON YOU, really thanks for the discussion now everyone can make up there own mind about what’s going on. And if that was still hard to follow, just read page 191 in David Hough’s Proficient Motorcycling).

And as far the wing thing goes, I believe I said the shape of the top of the wing creates lift I didn’t go far enough to say the controllable trailing edge (flaps) creates more lift. :nyah (I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night and thought I knew everything about Air-Foil design, sailing and motorcycles)

But then I woke up and found that I was still sitting at home with my wife standing by the back door saying come let's go...
All good fun, I hope had by all... :lol

a good discussion. let's not be lazy with our science in the future. if you're writing an article and you find yourself making stuff up about forces and masses and all that, drive to your local college, even a community college, and get a physics 101 prof to go over it with you. it's not that hard, and the prof will be stoked that someone cares about physics enough to ask him a question. :D

[Montauk]

Guys, I think it's time to book a Wind Tunnel lab at Ford Motor company and post data/graphs in 3D form. :D :D :D

It would be nice to know how air foil works on a bike with cross wind, with and without the knee sticking out.

A curious mind :kbasa

PS: Something I found on the Internet Crosswinds - How to deal with them by James R. Davis (http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=103) and this from another forum (http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=2777&#37377)

[RedHawK12GT]

[QUOTE=ultracyclist]What is the correct technique for riding in crosswinds with big gusts (gusts of 35mph and higher)?

I was leaning into the gusts, then releasing the lean as the gust subsided.
I was beginning to feel like a pin-ball.

What I do, and it seems to work, whichever side the wind is coming from I raise the opposite side of my ass off the seat and fart and it seems to correct the situation immediately. :fart

[Robert Briere]

Only in the forums can you find somthing like this. We are all carrying half a bubble or all on the edge of going either way. Sticking the leg out? A book should be writed on this, I'm sure one or two would be sold, give me a break. :doh

[donbmw]

Nobody has said this way to ride in a crosswind. Just go with the wind or into the wind. Wait a second seams that every time you make a turn you have a crosswind. :banghead

[Mika]

Having taken three quarters of physics for philosophers in college and having owned several sailboats I feel totally unqualified to step into this discussion, but when has that ever stopped me before.

I agree that I do not agree with Doc’s analysis. The knee into the wind is not creating a pressure affect or a wing. Any aerodynamic impact would be more analogous to a wing flap deployed to begin a turn or control roll (http://www.nasm.si.edu/exhibitions/GAL109/NEWHTF/ROLL.HTM) . In the case of the motorcycle sticking a knee inboard of the turn increases the impact of counter steering. Therefore the explanation for any input resulting in stability in a cross wind is more likely found in counter steering analysis.

Pudgypaintguy mentioned slowing down. Wouldn’t this decrease the gyroscopic affect of the wheels and thus the stability also?

This is my story and I sticking with it until the next post.
:lurk

[username]

Guys, I think it's time to book a Wind Tunnel lab at Ford Motor company and post data/graphs in 3D form. :D :D :D

It would be nice to know how air foil works on a bike with cross wind, with and without the knee sticking out.

A curious mind :kbasa

a wind tunnel can only give you flow in one direction. i guess you could angle the bike. let's say you're going 60mph, and you've got a 35mph crosswind, coming perfectly from the right...you'd have a resultant velocity vector of 69 mph at 30 degrees off the axis of travel of the bike. so you could set the bike up at a 30 degree angle and drive the tunnel at 69mph. then you sit there and stick your knee out and see what happens. since i think we're talking about relatively small forces, i'd want the bike on a conveyor belt to have the wheels spinning so we don't miss anything from the forces resulting from them.

i'll bet BMW has a wind tunnel where the wheels are driven and the bike is on a turntable - kbasa, next time you have a meeting with those guys, see if you can get us some time in their chamber. cover my travel expenses, and i'll write the article for the ON? :eat

[Mika]

A couple of results from a google of: motorcycle crosswind


Crosswinds How to deal with them By: James R. Davis
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=103

BCrider.com http://bcrider.com/progressive.html

Motor Cycle Stability and Steering by Andy Townsend: http://www.rider-ed.com/tips/motorcyclestability.htm

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_physics

[The_Veg]

Leave it to youse guys to make such a big discussion of it! :nyah :nyah :nyah

[Mika]

How else do you ever hope to keep up with the post count of K&B















:hide

[stan]

My biggest fear of cross winds is in the first ten feet leaving a stop light. With no forward momentem and no gyro(no discussion of gyro effect in this circumstance yet) effect working for you, one quick gust can send you to the ground. Over the years I've had different bikes that reacted completely different to cross winds at speed. Some tended to "blow over" and had to be forcefully be leaned into the wind. Others like my old 750 waterbuffalo and my R12RT seem to automatically lean into the wind on their own. I have never heard of the upwind knee out. I will certainly try it the at the next oppourtunity.

[torags]

I think the breeze moments of fart, deserve more analysis...

additionally, will wearing mesh pants embellish the effect?

[PacWestGS]

I have succeeded in creating a thorough and complete discussion of the theory of physics, scientific analysis, controversy, and opinion to an otherwise un-complicated answer.

Countersteering; how you achieve that and makes you happy is what makes you happy in a crosswind.

I find sitting on the high side of the seat and just laying the bike over works best for me.

I'll come back and finish my 'opinion' after I eat, and get off this PITA PDA.

[widebmw]

I hate riding through Dust-Devils.
The duration is short but the pucker factor is big.

[BradfordBenn]

How else do you ever hope to keep up with the post count of K&B

:hide

It takes years of dedication, and geekdom!

[rinty]

One technique I use is to ride on the upwind side of the lane, keeping a safe distance from the centre line or lane divider, and then let the gust carry me across to the other side of the lane. As the gust dissipates, I gradually track back to my "starting" position. Even if the gust doesn't dissipate by the time I have moved across to the "far" position, I have still lengthened the time interval during which I had to react to the gust. Needless to say, you can't do this if there is traffic around.
I discussed this technique with David Hough at the Nakusp Hotsprings Rally some time ago, and his reply was what happens if something interrupts the flow of the gust, i.e. a billboard or road cut. You might want to elaborate if you're following this post, David.
Going back to SFDoc/Username's interesting discussion above, I doubt whether the projected leg will create much of a low pressure area behind it, because that part of the air envelope around the bike will be extremely disturbed. There may be a bit of "scoop" effect, but I suspect most of any change in dynamics will be the result of the slight shift of the centre of mass of the bike and rider.
The leg out technique is interesting, and I will be trying it. We get incredible "Chinook" winds in southern Alberta sometimes, and they can be extremely difficult to ride. My new R 1150 RS seems much less susceptible to cross winds than my R 100 RS; a result, I think, of the reduced fairing area.
And slowing down helps too.

Rinty

[ultracyclist]

Little did I know that when I started this thread, the responses would include motorcycling tips. aerodynamics, sailing theory, physics, and some fun.

Wheew!

I suppose the time is not to distant when we will all have on board computers that calculate in millleseconds via data inputs the amount of vertical trim tab required to handle the crosswind gust.

This system will be analagous to the horizontal trim tab (wing) that appeared on formula race cars many years ago in order to increase traction around the turns.

What fun we are having!

Howard

[PacWestGS]

OK, I'm back, for anyone that wants to know, I'm in Virgina, I flew here on a plane.

As a sky-diver I learned quite a bit about the theory of flight: air-foils, shapes, velocity, resistance and the dynamics involved. I learned that the use of very small and minute but very powerful inputs even a couple of fingers on one hand can have on the stability and directional control that exists in a multi-dimensional environment. Anything you do on one side has to be done on the other to counter-act that movement. Its like if you hold your hand out the window of a moving vehicle just how little it takes to become a wing, or an anchor.

I also sailed quite a bit growing up (about four continuous years), and competed in ocean going races from time to time.

My experience with motorcycles is long and broad, very fast street bikes, not so fast street bikes, big street bikes and small street bikes, and dirt bikes of all sizes.

I really don’t know why hanging your knee out, causes the bike to seem more stable in a crosswind. I was thinking of what makes a sky-diver do various things while falling towards earth at 130-150 mph and how you can control that air (resistance) against your body to make it do certain expected things. Like turning on its own axis, or flip over or spin. And the counter move to correct if what you did was wrong. “Arch, flat dumb and happy” if you are not there yet, arch harder. I learned that you can slow yourself down from terminal velocity, by cupping the wind with your body, or streamline yourself and return to terminal velocity for a given size, mass and bodyweight. I also learned how to fly a Para-Foil type parachute, creating moves that you would not attempt in an airplane. Like stalls, and spins. It takes a lot of trim and adjustment to fly an un-powered parachute over 20-miles.

I think my idea is sound, when compared to the other dynamics of what makes a motorcycle turn, relative to a lot of very difficult and definable dimensions associated with various types and brands of motorcycles. What works on one type of bike may not work on another and so forth. (e.g., what works for a single dual/sport probably doesn’t work for a full dresser touring bike) Some of those factors and I have no data or descriptions in front of me right now, but they are: steering rake and trail, wheel size and width, tire design, surface of the road (angles and chamber), control devices (width of the handlebars), suspension, etc.

Username, you asked me try riding a bicycle and explain why hanging your knee out creates or induces a turn, simple. You have changed the relative pitch and rotational diameter of the tire surface in contact with the road. You added weight to one side of a relatively light vehicle and are simply creating what would be needed with counter-steering if you had not changed the weight factor. I don’t believe just hanging your knee out on a 400lb motorcycle will have the same effect. But, weighting the inside or outside peg does have effect on how the bike will turn and I guess that could be applied to a bicycle with same results.

On a street bike, at speed you turn or change direction by first moving the front tire out and away from the intended direction (counter-steer) that gets the bike leaned over (as the front tire tracks away from the rear tire) and upsets the forces of centrifugal and rotational (gyroscopic) forces of the wheels. (A bike will remain upright and going in a straight-line unless acted upon by the user or other forces or runs out of momentum.) Once the bike is leaned over it begins to turn in the desired direction and controlled in that turn by user inputs on the front wheel, to remain on the reduced curvature of the tire surfaces. When the rider wants to return the bike to an upright position, he can turn harder into the direction of the turn or simply relax and the bike should return to its normal upright position if there is enough momentum.

On a dirt bike, because of tire design, ground surface and resistance, a turn is more commonly initiated by first turning the front wheel in the direction of the turn and then using a combination of front and rear brakes to upset the forces of gravity and rotational force to lean the bike over (i.e., once the back wheel is no longer spinning it’s no longer acting as a gyroscope). Hanging your leg out creates the leverage and weight transfer to lay the bike over. Once that is accomplished the rider can either carve out the turn in the normal way a motorcycle turns, or use the power of the engine to control the delivery and angle of the turn. Keep in mind that as you apply that power to the rear wheel it becomes a huge gyroscope and wants to straighten the bike up. (When in Doubt, Gas It!)

But I digress,

A motorcycle wants to go straight and upright if not acted upon, correct? If the wind, specifically a crosswind is acting upon that desire to go straight then the rider has to counter the effects of the crosswind. Unfortunately, winds very in consistency and strength so rider input is constant and varied continuously.

If the motorcycle and its rider, his/her passenger, and any associated fairings, luggage, and trunks want to go straight but the wind wants to push the motorcycle over on to the smaller diameter of the tire it induces a turn in the undesired direction. Correct?

So the rider has to make steering corrections/inputs that counter the effect of the winds, no matter how strong they are, to the point of lean limits of the motorcycle and the safety of the rider to remain in the lane of travel. You cannot do this with body-English or desire to lean the bike alone. You might be able to hang a counter weight out to one side which will induce a slight turn because of the rotational angle of the tires. But, I don’t the think the theory of just a counter-weight is helping the people who swear by it, so there must be some other explanation, like I was “cooking-up.” Creating a positive air pocket around and in front of the rider’s knee, thus creating more fairing; even if invisible. Wind dynamics are way beyond me in terms of controlling them, but using them to my advantage well, that I’m pretty good at. As I think some others’ here have learned how to take advantage of certain characteristics of their bike and configuration.

I have ridden in crosswinds on different bikes; the worst of the worst was riding through the Mohave Desert: two-up, with a huge windscreen on a Harley Heritage Soft-tail Classic. With what I could only guestimate as a 25 mph crosswind hitting us from a ten-o’clock angle with gust over 35 mph. I was sitting fairly up-right on the down-wind edge of the seat with the bike pushed over underneath me staying as close the center line as I could and using most of the lane as needed. The bike was leaning in a constant turn, which was only controlled with hand movements pushing and pulling to maintain that straight line. When a gust would hit us I was literally dragging the floorboards across the ground at 65-70 mph using most of the lane. As traffic approached I would let the bike drift to the outside edge and then prepare to make corrections as necessary while the wind went away and then retuned. I would make it to about the center of the lane before I was riding up-right again and then slam it back over into a straight-line turn. None of this four-hour odyssey was fun, and sometimes downright scary, but I was young and my brother, sister-in-law and niece all had to get back to Riverside that day. My right leg was scorched from that damn motor and all the hot air being forced through it. I was never so happy to get off a motorcycle in a long time. Harley’s don’t turn; they drag everything until it grinds off. But seriously, it was a great time and fun was had by all, except these four-hours of a twenty-four rental and a family trip to Rock Creek, near Bishop, CA. My brother was following me on HD Road King, (more surface area), but what he had going for him was following me. He could see and anticipate what was ahead in the next few seconds and make adjustments.

To answer the original question, what do you do in a 35 mph cross wind? Park.

I’m sorry to mislead anyone, sometimes my approach is not taken with a hint of sarcasm or my reputation has become gospel. It should never be taken as gospel just something to make you “think.” Or, question? In this case we Q&A’d something to the enth’ degree. The "original" question not only is answered but, six or seven references have been listed for everyone to search for more information. :thumb

It’s been a blast. (See there’s humor in that) :D

:bikes I want people to be safe on them...

[Mika]

OK, I'm back, for anyone that wants to know, I'm in Virgina, I flew here on a plane.

As a sky-diver I learned quite a bit about the theory of flight: ...

I’m sorry to mislead anyone, sometimes my approach is not taken with a hint of sarcasm or my reputation has become gospel. It should never be taken as gospel just something to make you “think.” Or, question? In this case we Q&A’d something to the enth’ degree. The "origianl" question not only is answered but, six or seven references have been listed for everyone to search for more information. :thumb

It’s been a blast. (See there’s humor in that) :D

:bikes I want people to be safe on them...

Even when flying to sky-dive I always take off inside the plane, especially on a trip to Virginia.

Halleluiah broth Doc, praise the lord and pass the mustard. :D

[glwestcott]

I think other than in some cornering situations, its pretty much let the bike do its thing and then make a minor course change. Typically its the feeling more than the real danger there that freaks one out and the feeling is subjective and very often not tied to reality. Other than that, remember, when danger is around, go fast as hell to get out of it!! :D

[pmdave]

Very interesting discussion. My first observation is that there should be a place on the forum for riding skills, where subjects such as this could be found.

My second observation is that only SFDOC mentioned countersteering, which is, IMHO, the important part of controlling lean angle--and therefore direction. When a wind gust pushes the bike over toward the right, the way to correct that lean is to steer the front wheel even more toward the right, until the bike corrects and rolls back toward the left. In very general terms, press the grip in the direction you want the bike to go. If the bike gets pushed left, press on the right grip. If the bike gets pushed right, press on the left grip.

When the wind is gusting, or when the wind blast is interrupted by something (truck, billboard, hill etc.) you need to press immediately and powerfully to get a quick response. In general terms, the harder you press, the faster the roll rate. The longer you press, the greater the resulting lean angle.

The concepts of "sticking the knee out" or "shifting to the side of the saddle" are really a matter of hanging off. What few riders seem to appreciate is that hanging off changes the location of the tire contact rings, which in turn changes the feedback from steering. When a bike is leaned over while moving straight ahead, the contact rings ("contact patches" if you prefer) are far away from center, resulting in some very weird steering feedback. Hanging off allows you to shift your body CoG into the breeze, while improving steering feedback.

Another observation is that what we imagine we are doing is often not what is producing the result. Hanging off may seem to be what is causing the bike to turn up wind easier, but it might be that reducing steering resistance allows the rider to countersteer with less effort. Less (counter) steering effort = easier and quicker leaning.

An additional observation is that the location of the center of the sail area of the front end determines whether the bike will lean downwind or upwind when a gust hits the bike. If the center of sail (CoS) is forward of the steering axis, the wheel turns downwind, which countersteers the bike upwind. If the CoS is behind the steering axis, a gust tends to turn the front wheel upwind, which countersteers the bike downwind. (Think fender high and forward vs. fender enclosing the entire rear of the front wheel)

So, when thinking about a bike's design, remember that the location of the sails on the front wheel is perhaps more important than the sail areas of the fairings, bags, etc. We also might note that placing large sails far from the center of mass provides more leverage for a wind gust to push the bike around. (think a huge tail trunk mounted high and behind the rear axle, or a large cooler on a trailer hitch)

One additional note: it is possible for a wind gust to be strong enough to overcome front wheel traction. I have reports of bikes that were blown sideways after the front tire lost traction (think diesel oil, wet tar snakes, plastic lane markings)

I have been caught by sudden squalls where the only option was to turn downwind and lay the bike on its side (preferably behind a pile of gravel) before the wind could--literally--blow it off the road.

pmdave :wave

[Montauk]

The End.

Thanks. Dave. I am going to print this piece of article, and clip it with your "proficient motorcycle" book.

[torags]

"One additional note: it is possible for a wind gust to be strong enough to overcome front wheel traction. I have reports of bikes that were blown sideways after the front tire lost traction (think diesel oil, wet tar snakes, plastic lane markings)"

We were being blown sideways, 2up fully loaded with gear in north Africa during the Siroc. The rear wheel had it's traction broken numberous times during gusting within steady heavy wind. We were too scared to stop. Very unnerving.

[kbasa]

Very interesting discussion. My first observation is that there should be a place on the forum for riding skills, where subjects such as this could be found.



We could use a knowledgable moderator, if we were to put one up.

:stick

[Mika]

Doc we love you but resist and step away from the keyboard:stick

[Bigrider]

As with other riding skills, riding in heavy wind requires some practice. Ya want to get better, ride more in heavy winds. With practice comes the abiilty to relax which IMO is as important as employing the tricks of the road such as sticking your leg out, or farting into the wind, etc. Another fine point is knowing when to stop and seek shelter.

Dave H
San Antonio, Tx

[BradfordBenn]

Then there is the other option, just speed up to get more gyroscopic action from the wheels.


Just kidding

[Mika]

Went for a ride into the country to a long straight road I know. I practiced throwing the knee out. I was able to steer with my knees after a time. I am still trying to understand the impact on tire patch and why it works.

While I was riding back an forth doing this someone called the sheriff. I was weaving back and forth in my lane when LEO showed up. As hard as I tryed to explain what I was practicing he did not get it. We chatted and I took a breathalizer. I passed. He left thinking I am a bit off my nut - something several of you would be willing to confirm to him I am certain.

:lurk

[BradfordBenn]

Roflmao

[Mika]

Seeing this thread is in the Gear section perhaps we should condisder gear such as tires (http://www.motorcycledesign.com/news/news/400_Tyre/400_Tyre.htm) as a tool to deal with cross winds. I am not certain how much lean angle these would allow.

[BobFV1]

I was always of the "gut it out and ride through it" school of wind management until I got my GS. Previous bikes have mostly been full faired models, although I had an R1150R for a while a couple of years ago. Before the GS I had an R1150RT.

I rode quite a bit in the wind on the RT, riding between LA and Phoenix frequently. I found the RT to actually be fairly stable in the wind. I know it seems counterintuitive with all that plastic and the big "sail area", but as long as I kept the RT moving, the heavy rotating mass of the front end and the aerodynamics of the bike made it fairly stable in crosswinds, even up to and above 30 MPH.

I love my GS, but man oh man, that is one twitchy bike in the wind. I have put 10,000 miles on the bike in the last 2 months, and never have I been as spooked on a bike, in 30 years of riding, as I was in heavy crosswinds, 35 sustained gusting to 60, in the New Mexico/Arizona desert several weeks back - I finally had to end my trip 3 hours from home and wait for the calm of morning. Again, last Sunday night outside of Denver I was in heavy crosswinds - this time 20-25 MPH. I could really sense how changes in direction had a dramatic impact on the stability of the bike in crosswinds. Nothing I can do on the GS seems to make it any less twitchy in the wind, other than to park it and get off. I have never tried the "knee out" trick but I will after reading this.

I spoke to a pretty experienced GS rider (this is my first GS) and he told me that GS's don't do well in the wind, and averred that it is the relative lightness of the front end and the low rotating mass of the front wheel (I have a wire-spoke wheel). Whatever the reason, I am very careful to seek routes less prone to crosswinds on this bike.

[pmdave]

Sorry for the delay. Had a computer crash, and it's taken a couple of days to get it running again.

Let's note that the GS has the long "beak" protruding forward, attached to the frame, not the "front end". Therefore, wind pushing on the beak pushes the bike sideways, but doesn't steer the front wheel. The GS front fender is about evenly spaced front/rear of the steering axis, so it doesn't contribute to countersteering itself upwind.

Let's also note that the handlebars are exposed on the GS, and that allows the full force (or almost full) to push on the rider's arms. Imagine the wind pushing your elbows downwind. Let's say the wind blast is from the left. That pushes your elbows to the right. If your arms pull on the grips toward the right, that would (counter) steer the bike toward the right--downwind. So, you may not be aware of the considerable wind force that indirectly pushes on the grips, but it does affect steering.

Let me emphasize once more that it's steering the front wheel that controls lean angle and therefore direction. If the bike is swerving downwind, you need to consciously press the grips toward "upwind", and press hard enough that the bike restores the direction in which you want it to go--regardless of the resulting lean angle or strange feedback from the grips.

Note that when the bike is heading (more or less) straight ahead, but leaned over into the wind, the contact rings are off-center toward the wind. That is, if the bike is leaning over to the left, the contact rings will be to the left of the bike centerline. That doesn't have a significant effect on the rear wheel, but it does increase drag on the front wheel, toward the left. And since bikes steer "backwards", dragging the front wheel more toward the left countersteers the bike more toward the right. (lifts it up our of the left lean)

So, with the bike leaned over into the wind, to maintain your "straight line", you'll need to apply some counterpressure to prevent it from lifting up. Instead of having neutral steering feedback (as in a normal left turn) you may need to press even harder on the left grip to keep the bike leaned over into the wind.

Hanging off toward the wind (say toward the left side when the wind is from the left) helps by moving the contact ring slightly more toward the centerline of the bike--and that reduces the off-center drag, which reduces steering effort needed to keep the bike leaned.

pmdave

[BradfordBenn]

Seeing this thread is in the Gear section perhaps we should condisder gear such as tires (http://www.motorcycledesign.com/news/news/400_Tyre/400_Tyre.htm) as a tool to deal with cross winds. I am not certain how much lean angle these would allow.

Good point, I moved it....

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

I spoke to a pretty experienced GS rider (this is my first GS) and he told me that GS's don't do well in the wind, and averred that it is the relative lightness of the front end and the low rotating mass of the front wheel (I have a wire-spoke wheel). Whatever the reason, I am very careful to seek routes less prone to crosswinds on this bike.[/QUOTE]


I was thinking of the Tank Panniers to keep the front end weighted a little with a low, centralized weight to offset the front end being naturally light on my GS. Does anyone have experiences with the tank panniers that would either validate or discount that theory please?

[ultracyclist]

I move, and I hope that some one seconds the motion, that pmdave presents a workshop at the Wisconsin Rally in 2007 on "Riding Techniques in Crosswinds".

Clearly, there are many variables, and different models of rads will each have their own handling characteristics.

[BobFV1]

Let's note that the GS has the long "beak" protruding forward, attached to the frame, not the "front end". Therefore, wind pushing on the beak pushes the bike sideways, but doesn't steer the front wheel. The GS front fender is about evenly spaced front/rear of the steering axis, so it doesn't contribute to countersteering itself upwind.

Dave,

How true! No wonder you are a world famous motorcycling author...this simple observation explains a lot of what I "feel" in the wind, literally, the front end of the bike just being shoved over by wind gusts. The wind catches up under the beak and just pushes the frame in a downwind direction. Brilliant.

Unfortunately, understanding the physics doesn't make the experience any less unnerving for me :(

[pmdave]

[QUOTE=ultracyclist]I move, and I hope that some one seconds the motion, that pmdave presents a workshop at the Wisconsin Rally in 2007 on "Riding Techniques in Crosswinds".QUOTE]

Although I will not be at the 2006 Vermont rally, it is entirely possible I could make the 2007 Wisconsin rally, in which case I could certainly do a presentation on steering, balancing, and cross winds, if that would be helpful. Anyone else interested?

pmdave
(aka David L. Hough, author of Proficient Motorcycling) :deal

[dancogan]

[QUOTE=ultracyclist]I move, and I hope that some one seconds the motion, that pmdave presents a workshop at the Wisconsin Rally in 2007 on "Riding Techniques in Crosswinds".QUOTE]

Although I will not be at the 2006 Vermont rally, it is entirely possible I could make the 2007 Wisconsin rally, in which case I could certainly do a presentation on steering, balancing, and cross winds, if that would be helpful. Anyone else interested?

pmdave
(aka David L. Hough, author of Proficient Motorcycling) :deal

Absolutely! I read every word of your posts, and would love to attend a seminar. :clap :clap :clap :clap

[BernieEcht]

Dave, I will be missing your Coffee with Dave this year, but will definetly would be there in Wisconsin for any seminar.
Would you be interested to hold a talk at the Winter Rally in NE Florida in Jan 07? Maybe the wrong place to asked, but I figured I try any way.

[pmdave]

Bernie,

Send me a personal note, and we can discuss it.

pmdave

[pmdave]

BTW, I am planning on being at the RA rally in Boise ID July 6-8, and will have "coffee with Dave" there on Friday and Saturday.

pmdave

[PacWestGS]

Back by popular demand, well, at least one of you (privately) asked me keep going.

Along with what pmdave is saying about certain MC types. Some are better suited to crosswinds better than others and some are downright not advisable to be tackling such forces. Only the rider and their skills can determine how much is too much.

I'll try and be concise, (but that's hard to do and still explain it well.)

In addition to the aforementioned 'Beak' and wide handlebars of the GS, there are other factors that will make that particular bike more work. Its high ground clearance results in a higher COG than other street bikes, the front end is flat and not very aerodynamic, so it doesn't cut through the wind as well, making the sides more apparent. The 'Hand guards' and non-aerodynamic mirrors act as little billboards in the wind, and if you have 'spoilers' well, all the more so. If equal pressure is applied they are not a hindrance, except in fuel mileage, but if riding a crosswind one side will have more pressure exerted on it than the other (being blocked by the instrument cluster or windscreen). Unfortunately, the side having pressure exerted is exacerbating the effects of the wind in controlling the bike.

Let me explain: say you are riding south and have an Easterly (coming from the left) crosswind that is blowing hard enough that you are required to counter-steer into it. That's a misnomer; you are actually steering away from it, causing the MC to lean-over into it. For the wind direction we are describing the wind is trying to push the top of the MC over into a right-hand turn. You are counter-steering in the direction of a left-turn to the point of going straight, (the front tire is out-tracking on the down-wind side) more lean, actual left turn, less lean turning right. Not only are you fighting the effects of the crosswind, but the wind is actually pushing on the control devise (the left grip) that you are trying to push forward (left-grip) to maintain that left-counter-steer. Remember push-left, turn left; well, the GS is not helping you with those independent billboards sitting on each side of the handlebars.

Dave mentions in his book PM about another technique, pulling both grips down into the wind. I don't want re-write anything here, or step on toes, but the idea is that instead of pushing the left grip to hold the line, try pulling both grips down and towards the direction of the wind. It's using both arms and your shoulders to control the bike. You won't get tired as fast and it helps to keep the effects of the wind from pushing against your windy side arm. It's not as precise or quick and you need to use more space within the lane, but hey you've got eight to ten feet, allow some drift unless passing or being passed by other vehicles in either direction. With time and experience you can decide which you have more of, Time or Space?

The 19" front wheel of the GS is actually better than other newer bikes with a small 17" diameter wheel because the gyroscope effect is bigger, but how much depends on speed. Spoked or mag. doesn't really matter much because it's the hoop and tire mass that creates the gyro.

Just to add a comparison: a bike with a fixed fairing extending out past the grips and having fixed mirrors on it does not add counter forces to the riders' input on steering, so it's easier, more stable, and less tiring.

I have much more info on the matter, but I'll post later so it's not a book. Hey, maybe I should write a story for the ON?

Doc

[Jym]

I've found that the most success to riding a variable crosswind is to pay close attention to the terrain and the vehicles coming the other way. You soon get to know how the hillock on the windward side is going to affect the amount (and direction) of the wind blast that will be trying to alter your course. The same holds true for the Peterbilt vs the Miata that is headed your way. To be forewarned is to be prpared for the necessary steering inputs needed to stay in your own lane. A steady crosswind is not the problem, you just lean into it and proceed down the road at some angle other than verticle.

This has been learned from rides across the Nevada desert in the Santa Anas and in Wyoming where every wind is a crosswind.

[BobFV1]

I've found that the most success to riding a variable crosswind is to pay close attention to the terrain and the vehicles coming the other way. You soon get to know how the hillock on the windward side is going to affect the amount (and direction) of the wind blast that will be trying to alter your course. The same holds true for the Peterbilt vs the Miata that is headed your way. To be forewarned is to be prpared for the necessary steering inputs needed to stay in your own lane. A steady crosswind is not the problem, you just lean into it and proceed down the road at some angle other than verticle.

This has been learned from rides across the Nevada desert in the Santa Anas and in Wyoming where every wind is a crosswind.

I absolutely agree with Jym. Now that I am committed to the GS for a few years, I will be picking "wind avoidance" routes, and when winds are predicted I will be choosing roads that sit in valleys or hug mountain ranges. Sometimes a canyon wind will still surprise me, but by checking weather reports and looking at the topographic relief I have found that I can limit my exposure to the wind pretty well. And when the gusts become too strong, I am always ready to pull off the road.

[pmdave]

SFdoc: don't worry about stepping on my toes. And thanks for the mention of my book Proficient Motorcycling (cheapest source: amazon.com)

I ride an 1150 GS some of the time, and I don't feel it's important to avoid certain areas just because it's a GS. Once you understand the odd feedback and steering input needed to control the bike during strong winds or wind gusts, I believe the GS is just as controllable as any other machine.

As Jym points out it's smart to observe the terrain and other vehicles approaching. Be especially wary of big trucks approaching in the upwind lane, particularly on narrow 2-laners. Trucks push a huge "bow wave" of air, and when punching through a strong gust, the resulting turbulence can be surprisingly powerful.

On a trip through eastern Washington several years ago, I was negotiating a narrow secondary highway with strong winds requiring some immediate steering input. I observed an oncoming 18-wheeler, and prepared for the blast, but I wasn't prepared for what happened. About 10 feet prior to passing, I was hit by the turbulence curling around the front of the cab, and the blast was so strong it bent the (Luftmeister) windshield back about 6 in., yanked my faceshield open so forcefully it pulled my helmet up far enough that the chin bar was obscuring my vision. My arms were almost ripped off the grips, and the bike was literally pushed toward the downwind ditch.

I quickly grabbed the helmet and pulled it down, managed to maintain control and stay on the pavement, but for thousands of miles thereafter I was extremely paranoid about trucks approaching on my windward side. After that episode, for some time I ducked down with my chin on the tank in preparation for a possible turbulent blast, but I've never had an exact repeat of that situation. I think it was a rare combination of truck cab design (cabover), narrow road, and a blast that hit at axactly the worst moment.

In any case, be prepared for such wind blasts by watching the wind direction and judging the effect an oncoming truck will have if a gust hits just as you are passing.

pmdave

[pmdave]

Perhaps it would be helpful to mention various windy locations. One of the windiest locations in WA/OR is the Columbia Gorge. The desert air heats up and rises, sucking cold air in from the ocean. It's not uncommon on a warm summer afternoon to have wind steady at 30 - 40 mph, with occasional gusts. Because of the terrain, the wind is strongest around the Cascade Locks area, and there is a narrow toll bridge there named "Bridge of the gods" that is positioned at right angles to the wind, and has a steel grated deck.

If you make it across southbound, you get to pay a toll. Northbound, you pay the toll first, and then find yourself sweating when you see an oncoming logging truck, because you'll be on the downwind side.

This is one bridge I'd advise any motorcyclist to avoid if the wind is nasty.

What's YOUR favorite?

pmdave

[BobFV1]

I had a hell of a time last week on the Colorado plains - I-70 East of Denver, with a strong, gusty wind from the South blowing me around ebtween Denver and Limon, and points East.

Another area I commonly get winds in, especially in Summer time, is Arizona, NM - the I-40 corridor between about Flagstaff and Albequerque, and all poits about 100 mi north and south. Summer afternoons the winds can whip up quite terribly - good to get a very early start if heavy winds are predicted.

You can use accuweather.com and check the 15-day forecast for any city - it will tell you if high wind advisories are predicted and will give you an hour-by-hour so you can plan your route. Likewise, if you have been through a windy area in the past 24 hours, check Accuweather and it will give you hour by hour wind in whatever city you passed through - this is a good way of determining how strong the winds actually were which you just encountered.

Ride safe.

[rgvilla]

I lived in Albuquerque for many years, I remember one spring day I was southbound on I-25 near Belen riding the R90/6. It was a classic early spring day with gusty winds, dust devils etc. I noticed a huge tumbleweed heading for me from my right. I sped up then slowed down and damn if it didn't hit me dead on. thought it was going to knock me over as it was bigger than me and the bike. I managed to stay upright and pull to the side of the road where I had to peel the thing off of my leg. I believe to this day that that thing had me in its sights. :laugh

[pmdave]

Yeh, I hit a tumbleweed in northeast Oregon, driving the K1 sidecar rig. I was picking pieces of tumbleweed out of the radiator, frame, fairing, etc. for weeks.

pmdave

[pmdave]

SFDOC,

Yes, do generate an article on riding in crosswinds for ON. But, give us some good illustrations or photos, eh?

pmdave :wave

[Motorman]

The worst wind condition I have ever ridden a bike through was just west of El Paso Texas. I had been following some semi's accross the desert as they were making good time and I knew they were watching for smokey. I saw a large collum of dust crossing the road ahead. The semi ahead of me slowed and went all the way to the left shoulder before hitting the collum. When he cleared it he was on the right shoulder of the WB side of a 4 lane highway (I-10).

I went to the left lane and was able to stay in the lane but leaned way the hell over to the point I was almost able to grind the peg. I did stay in the lane, but barely. I decide to stop there for the night and the weather man was talking about wind with gusts up to 125 MPH in the area. I got the hell outa Dodge early the next morning before they kicked up again. I HATE El Paso as it is always windy eveytime I go through the darn place. A nasty nasty spot on the earth.

[rgvilla]

I did the I-25 route between Albuquerque and El Paso many times and can attest to the winds in the area. I recall stories of campers being blown off of pickups and trailers being blown over. I did basic at Ft. Bliss February-April 68 and the week in the field was all wind and colder than hell. Ah the memories :D

[Troutluck]

. . . riding around the arklahoma tornado factory, ape hangers seem to be the best defense against a heavy crosswind.

< / lurk>
-jp
'00 r1100r
FU007 (1st MC tag)

:wow

[bubbagazoo]

from riding around the arklahoma tornado factory, ape hangers seem to be the best defense against a heavy crosswind.

</lurk>
-jp
'00 r1100r
FU007 (1st MC tag)

:wow

That may be, but I think ape hangers would look awful funny on my RT :laugh

[Motorman]

So where do you hang the ape on your motorcycle? Do you use the ape for counterbalance for the wind or what?