Shifting without the clutch

[dtgates]

I recently began to start shifting gears on my 04 R1150R without using the clutch. This seems to shift smooth as long as I 'feather' the throttle down a bit during the up-shift. I don't do this all the time, but my acceleration seems to be quicker and smoother when I do. Am I doing any damage to the transmission by shifting without the clutch? Has anyone ever 'fried' a tranny by doing this?
Thanks in advance for any input.
Doug
Seattle, WA

[PacWestGS]

dtgates, WELCOME to the Club!!! :wave

That sir, is going to stir a lot of debate in this forum. So stand back and wait.

I up-shift without using my clutch and have found no ill effects if done properly and like you stated. I've down-shifted both on and off-road from time to time and it does work too if done properly.

Some will tell you that BMW transmissions are not designed to be shifted this way, so zip-up your flame suit and put on your waders; you have asked one of those questions that will generate lots of 'passionate argument' :D

I've pounded many a dirt bike tranny into the ground up and down and they all still worked years and many races later... :lurk


:bikes


Doc

[The_Veg]

I don't think any transmissions except for some drag-racing units are designed to be shifted 'this way.' As long as it doesn't make any ugly noises I think you're just fine.

[HFD190]

Why wouldn’t you use the clutch? Sure, any quality transmission will actually “shift” between gears without the clutch as long as the RPMs are in the range, but why push it? Treat your bike with the respect that it deserves!

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

I recently began to start shifting gears on my 04 R1150R without using the clutch. This seems to shift smooth as long as I 'feather' the throttle down a bit during the up-shift. I don't do this all the time, but my acceleration seems to be quicker and smoother when I do. Am I doing any damage to the transmission by shifting without the clutch? Has anyone ever 'fried' a tranny by doing this?
Thanks in advance for any input.
Doug
Seattle, WA


Hi there dtgates. Bottom line is that it is your bike and your money that bought it and so your ride technique is what you want it to be...lol.

Damage can be caused to the tranny in the form of chipped gears if you don't get the shift quite right over a period of time, and if this is what you prefer perhaps have a magnetized oil plug for the tranny or at least check the oil frequently to check for filings? I don't go clutchless, however, I will shift by just pulling the clutch in about an inch-2 inches at times as it does shift really smooth that way, smoother than a full pull. This is very infrequent that I do that though, mostly if I am playing. It is hard to kid oneself that GS is a real road racer...lol.

[Stuff2C]

It is hard to kid oneself that GS is a real road racer...lol.


There are more than a few jap bikes out there that will beg to differ. :D

[Easy]

In the short run, if you shift properly, you probably won't do too much damage. But I would bet the farm that after 50 thousand miles or more (or prehaps less), the untrained eye could tell the difference between the unclutched tranny and the clutched. And you can bet the person that you're trying to sell it to will tell the difference while taking the "test drive".
BMW has become extremely cost conscious these days. The tool kit in the new 1200RT won't even open an envelope. Why would they even offer a clutch if it was not essential. I would use the clutch.

Easy :lurk

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

There are more than a few jap bikes out there that will beg to differ. :D

LOL...I am sure that my whale like mass and limited racing ability do nothing to help the GS' image either...lol

[screwtop]

Dtgates,

If your comfortable shifting without the clutch, I would say do it. My friend (who happens to be a BMW mechanic) says he never uses his clutch on upshifts. He's riding a 97 R1100RS with 180,000K on it, and no tranny failures yet, although he did put a later model RT trans in the bike for taller or shorter gearing purposes (don't remember which).

I personally am not comfortable doing this on my GS, so I usually full-clutch it. The forum reports..., you decide.

[PacWestGS]

I should clarify that there are only a few times 'on-road' that I up-shift under non-aggressive situations where just providing the necessary (light but firm) upward pressure on the shift lever and just ever so slightly roll off the throttle it slips right into gear smoothly. I don't know or think there is any more wear and tear as an aggressive powered up-shift with the clutch and the transmission is slammed into the next gear, because the rpm's of the engine and wheel are way out of sync.

It's certainly something everyone should know how to do, should your clutch ever fail you miles from somewhere. Both up and down. I've had to ride a few bikes home with a broken clutch cable. Start it in neutral push up to speed hop on and start shifting and make a lot of right turns all the way home.

JMO
YMMV

Doc

[BubbaZanetti]

The tool kit in the new 1200RT won't even open an envelope. Why would they even offer a clutch if it was not essential.



lol, clutch as an "option" that would be awsome, or maybe an "anti lock clutch"

[flash412]

"The tool kit in the new 1200RT won't even open an envelope."THIS is going into my quotes file.

[Easy]

In fact, while we’re on the same stream of logic, why bother to use those nasty power-assisted integral brakes. A perfectly good old tennis shoe will slow me down. Two handlebar grips…posh!! Surely a waste; why not use one? That way my other hand is free to waive at every single object, organic or otherwise, that passes me on the road. :wave Or I could write a safety article for ON. After all, I don't need the clutch anymore.

Easy

[PacWestGS]

In fact, while we’re on the same stream of logic, why bother to use those nasty power-assisted integral brakes. A perfectly good old tennis shoe will slow me down. Two handlebar grips…posh!! Surely a waste; why not use one? That way my other hand is free to waive at every single object, organic or otherwise, that passes me on the road. :wave Or I could write a safety article for ON. After all, I don't need the clutch anymore.

Easy


Hey Easy,

That sounds just like my first bike (really wasn't a motorcycle) but a Honda Trail 50. I think it had a throttle grip and a brake lever on the right handlebar attached to something in the front hub that didn't do much, it had rear brake lever that attached to something in the rear hub that didn't do much, and it had a gear shift lever that was one up and two down (or was that one down and two up) anyway there was no clutch per se, you put it in gear and twisted the throttle and away it went shift up or down as needed to keep it moving and when you stopped (with the both feet on the ground method) it just sat there waiting go again. I'm not even sure why it had a neutral; you could push around in any gear when it stopped running. :stick

There are and have been automatic shifters for bikes for a very long time and now there are even better ones that are handlebar mounted like a F1 or SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox) for new bikes of all makes and sizes. So if you really want to stop using your clutch, you'll just have to spend some more money to make the way you want it. :D


And I think it's great that you'd be willing to write some safety articles for the ON, we can never have enough good information out there for the newer riders' in the club. :thumb


Doc

I use my clutch everytime I'm sitting at a stoplight, keeps me from killing the engine, it also helps keep the engine going when I go power sliding into a dirt corner with the back wheel locked up. It does have some usefulness... :nod


:bikes

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Hey Easy,

There are and have been automatic shifters for bikes for a very long time and now there are even better ones that are handlebar mounted like a F1 or SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox) for new bikes of all makes and sizes. So if you really want to stop using your clutch, you'll just have to spend some more money to make the way you want it. :D
bikes


And now Yamaha are bringing out an FZ1 with a clutchless gearbox. Bound to be way better than the old '80's Honda 400 Dream Automatic eh?...lol

[mullerjd1]

I almost never use the clutch when upshifting from 2nd on any of my bikes. When done right it makes for very smooth and quick shifts

[flash412]

I almost never use the clutch when upshifting from 2nd on any of my bikes. When done right it makes for very smooth and quick shiftsMe neither, too. I blip the throttle and skip the clutch on downshifts, too. I bang gears without the clutch about as often as I do with the clutch. Banging gears is about not having the shaft speeds matched when you shift, not about the clutch. You can bang shift dogs while using the clutch, too. Not using the clutch makes me more sensitive to matching the shaft speeds. I guess I pay more attention and make sure things are synched up when I'm not using the clutch.

I used to have an International Harvester pick-up truck with a manual transmission that had NO synchros in it at all from the factory. I bloody well LEARNED how to shift gears by matching road speed to engine rpm on that thing, upshifts and down. It was named, appropriately, "White Trash," because it was.

[PacWestGS]

I just wanted to say thanks, for reminding me.... :idea

I came home today, and after climbing up slick rain soaked and slippery hills (San Francisco type hills) in Tacoma (first rain in a couple weeks) during stop and go lights and signs, I smoked my clutch a few times (and it started to stink). So every time I could after that I was doing clutchless shifts, and trying to keep the engine temps down and the clutch even cooler. I had no problems up or down and would full pull it at stop lights and signs (even God forbid put it in neutral) until I got home.

Leave a stop in first, clutch second and then shift smoothly up and down 3-5 and 5-2 without using the clutch. I never missed or grinded a gear, gotta love wet slippery roads.

[GeneT]

Motor cycle transmissions employ constant mesh gears, if shifting without the use of the clutch is done in the correct manner is not likely harm to the tranny. Actually the only time the clutch is absolutely necessary is when starting and stopping.

Current highway trucks (18 wheelers) now use this technology. However keep in mind some people could destroy a brand new anvil in two weeks.

:dance

[flash412]

Actually the only time the clutch is absolutely necessary is when starting and stopping.You don't need to use the clutch to stop. Just snick it into neutral (w/o the clutch) from second as you brake to a stop. You only really need the clutch (to make life easier) when you start moving from a dead stop.

If you're facing downhill... you can push the bike to get it rolling and then once it is rolling reasonably fast, snick it into first without the clutch.

Uphill... is a different deal entirely. You CAN kill the motor and put the bike in first, then use the starter to get moving. But that is really hard on all sorts of parts.

[CustomSarge]

Any & all mechanisms can be shifted without a "slip-engagement" device (clutch) IF:
rotational speed to the next gear is "Very" close AND differential torque factor isn't too big.

If You're THAT confident that you can fit within the parameters dynamically AND REPEATABLY....... rock N roll.... with my admiration.

I'm Really trivializing this: bottom line:
? go fast ? bang the tranny !!
? long life ? use the clutch ...

as always...season 2 taste..... <<<)))

[dlearl476]

I'm Really trivializing this: bottom line:
? go fast ? bang the tranny !!
? long life ? use the clutch ...

as always...season 2 taste..... <<<)))

The point we're trying to make here is that done right, clutchless shifting doesn't "bang the tranny". IMHO, motorcycle transmissions shift better without the clutch. Even when I do "use" the clutch, I rarely do more than put pressure on the cable.

[GeneT]

This is a follow up of my earlier post, those wanting more information regarding constant mesh trannys as used in motorcycles can see the exploded view in this article which is very detailed. Perhaps this will convince those that are in doubt.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/genecash/transmission_applet/transmission_applet.html

:wave